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Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

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Re: Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

#141

Post by kube-system »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #124
throwaway55533 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> government-mandated monopoly Could you expand on this, aren't U.S. car dealerships private businesses competing in a (mostly) unregulated market?

No, they only exist because state laws prevented manufacturers from selling directly to customers.

They'd originally existed because manufacturers didn't have enough resources to sell directly to customers, and they'd probably still exist (in a smaller capacity) today even if manufacturers could sell direct. Because there still are some manufacturers that sell low enough volumes in the US that it would probably still financially make sense for them to lean on a dealer network.

But for sure, Ford, GM, Toyota, Stellantis, etc would probably love to sell direct.

Re: Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

#142

Post by itsoktocry »

rrr_oh_man wrote: post #51
itsoktocry wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But instead we ended up with a system where car dealerships basically own local lawmakers and got laws passed that not only prevent the manufacturer from competing with them, but make it really hard for people to start new dealerships to compete with them. There are practical reasons for this. People buy expensive items and expect to be able to get those items maintained and serviced. If the business was cutthroat,…

> you can shop quotes around And use them openly against each other to get a better subsequent quote.

Exactly. And once they know you are interested, you have all the leverage, because there are so many great cars out there. You can negotiate ferociously.

I once had the salesman turn his terminal around and say to me, "Have a look. By the time we pay the guys to detail and prep the car, we will make $700 off this sale. I have no more room."

Re: Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

#143

Post by astura »

itsoktocry wrote: post #138
astura wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, I've never gotten anything out of the test drive either - my mind was already made up based on price/features when I went to the dealership. I'm more-or-less just looking for something that gets me where I need to go safely, I don't care about "handling." My last car purchase (a Nissan Sentra) I didn't even bother with the test drive, I felt it would just be a waste of time. The other thing is that some "car peo…

> My last car purchase (a Nissan Sentra) I didn't even bother with the test drive, I felt it would just be a waste of time. Something led you to buy a Sentra, though, a car that is middling in its class. Why?

I already answered in the comment you are replying to -

"my mind was already made up based on price/features"

and

"I'm more-or-less just looking for something that gets me where I need to go safely."

I know that "car guys" can't fathom this but I've driven a LOT of car models (as I've rented a LOT) and they are (mostly) the same to me; I consider cars almost a commodity. I wouldn't even know how to compare vehicle "handling."

Re: Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

#144

Post by pricechild »

itsoktocry wrote: post #105
cogman10 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But what difference do you think this makes in reality? The process ends up being the similar. The difference is the price listed is the price you pay. There's not an environment where the dealer is injecting whatever BS fee or piss poor financing they can to milk out every extra cent from the customer. The manufacture is incentivized to sell these cars at the advertised price.

> The difference is the price listed is the price you pay. There's not an environment where the dealer is injecting whatever BS fee or piss poor financing they can to milk out every extra cent from the customer. What does the "advertised price" mean, when companies like Tesla can, and do, change it on a whim? Is that really better? No one is stopping you from walking into a dealership and paying sticker/MSRP.

What does Tesla do differently regarding changing product prices that they're worth calling out compared to other companies?

My personal experience is that they honoured my order and delivered a vehicle superior in every metric but "turning radius". (Which has a far higher price if ordered again on my delivery day)

Every company in every industry modifies products and pricing? See e.g. "shrinkflation"

Re: Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

#145

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

tejohnso wrote: post #140
PaywallBuster wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> direct manufacturer auto sales are prohibited in many states by franchise laws requiring that new cars be sold only by independent dealers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes not a monopoly per se, but "forced demand"

Doesn't just about everyone hate dealing with a dealership? Shouldn't it be very easy to vote to fix that in a democracy?

Not when dealers pay politicians to keep it that way.

Even if you ran a petition and forced a state ballot measure, dealers would run a propaganda campaign to make it sound like a pro-Tesla measure.

Re: Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

#146

Post by abtinf »

tejohnso wrote: post #140
PaywallBuster wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> direct manufacturer auto sales are prohibited in many states by franchise laws requiring that new cars be sold only by independent dealers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes not a monopoly per se, but "forced demand"

Doesn't just about everyone hate dealing with a dealership? Shouldn't it be very easy to vote to fix that in a democracy?

See “Public Choice Theory”: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_choice

Or watch the BBC comedy “Yes, Minister” and “Yes, Prime Minister” to grasp how government (as well as most large companies) actually works.

Re: Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

#147

Post by kristjansson »

jcrash wrote: post #92
metalliqaz wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you go too far. I too have a deep dislike for dealerships, but they are not useless. Specifically, it's a place you can go to test drive cars and they have OEM-certified garages for warranty repairs. Can't test drive when you buy online. I think the main problem with dealerships is the government granted monopoly. If a dealership is in a region, most states prevent any other dealership from setting up shop in…

>Specifically, it's a place you can go to test drive cars and they have OEM-certified garages for warranty repairs. Can't test drive when you buy online. Tesla doesn't have independent dealerships and it's quite easy to test drive their cars before you buy.

It's also very, very difficult to get them repaired...

Re: Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

#148

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

PaywallBuster wrote: post #121
throwaway55533 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> government-mandated monopoly Could you expand on this, aren't U.S. car dealerships private businesses competing in a (mostly) unregulated market?

> direct manufacturer auto sales are prohibited in many states by franchise laws requiring that new cars be sold only by independent dealers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_US_dealership_disputes not a monopoly per se, but "forced demand"

To be specific, the objective of state statutes is to block direct manufacturer auto sales. The objective is achieved in a roundabout way: the statutes written prevent the establishment of physical dealership locations owned by the manufacturers. They are not broad enough to restrict direct sales. This means that some creative sales techniques can be used, if you:

(a) don't need to have cars in a lot,

(b) can sell online,

(c) tolerate some uncertainty while interpretation of status is fought in court.

Then, you can (in many states), sell cars directly.

Tesla does all 3 as they usually don't have (a) inventory and in some cases, the law doesnt prohibit showrooms (b) seem perfectly comfortable selling you the car online (and critically, customers are ok with this too) and (c) have money to fight for settlement of the issues.

Theres even more creative sales now - tesla is actively setting up sales ops in Indian reservations - which have their own sets of the laws outside of specific states.

Edit: added (c) which is certainly an important factor in many states

Re: Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

#149

Post by amne »

tmpz22 wrote: post #122
hubraumhugo wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My entrepreneurial mind immediately thinks: Let's create a better solution to revolutionize this industry and make the old, expensive incumbents obsolete. We can drive to the affected car dealers and migrate them one by one. Of course, I'm not going to do it and it's probably extremely hard :)

Enterprise vendors have gotten better at locking in customers on multi-year contracts which takes away some of the biggest upside to chipping away at the market. Often a challenger will come in and snag a few smaller deals but the Monopoly has a plethora of options to swat it away - rev up their larger more experienced product team to compete, lobby for regulation, poach from the challenger, acquire the challenger, t…

wait.. why is "rev up their larger more experienced product team to compete" bad?

Re: Car dealerships revert to pens and paper after cyberattacks on software provider

#150

Post by vel0city »

metadat wrote: post #107
tonymet wrote: post #79

In studying voting systems I’ve come to respect paper-based logs along the same quality parameters as databases. Resiliency, scalability, backup, readability, schema-flexibility , onboarding, power-efficiency are all very good with paper. So many of us were quick to move paper-based systems (voting, orders, kiosks, parking meters, journals, requests, etc) over to computers – without accounting for the e2e cost and fl…

How does the backup aspect work for paper? Scanning? Otherwise paper is quite fragile and susceptible to combustion. What if voting was all done via paper and you could later view the scan of your ballot as it existed at the time of count? Unfortunately there could still be funny business on the backend.

I'm not a fan of being able to see the values of your ballot after it is cast. It greatly opens up the possibility of coercion or bribery. If I can show how I voted, it leaves it open for someone to demand/request I prove to them how I voted. And just seeing a picture of it tells you pretty much nothing about if the system actually counted it properly or not, you still need to trust the counting system at some level.

Lets say someone offers me $500 to vote for candidate X. I don't like X, but I do like money. I vote for Y, I tell them I voted for X, there is no proof either way, would they still want to give me that $500? Or if someone says, "vote for X or I'll break your legs", how would they know if I voted for X or not?

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