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Can men live without war? (1956)

theatlantic.com

211–220 of 237 posts

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#211
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, a bit overstated. None of them killed EVERYTHING, near as we can tell. Not even the oxygen catastrophe you're mentioning. To do that would likely require liquifying the mantle entirely, or some similar scale event. The last big one was approximately 66 million years ago due to perhaps the Chicxulub impact, and it wiped out most of the dinosaurs - but modern birds are descended from them, and the crocodiles and al…

Species become extinct all the time. Humans don't have to exterminate all life, to exterminate humans.

I never said they did.

I said good luck exterminating humans.

Hell, not that long ago the most technologically advanced society of the time (Nazi Germany) with a massive and state of the art army tried to exterminate a subset of humans (Jews, Homosexuals, Roma) using massive force, the latest technology, and with a near single minded focus.

And while they did kill a lot of people and perpetrate terrible crimes, they also failed rather completely at the task. Even in areas where they were literally burning everything to the ground.

What makes you think they would have been more successful if they’d also been trying to kill themselves at the same time? Hence impeding their abilities?

And humans are, near as we can tell, the most lethal animals on the planet overall.

Humans survive implausibly terrible situations on the regular, and are currently living in every major ecological niche in the environment except perhaps the very deepest parts of the ocean. Though if we count military submersibles and oil rig diving bells, they too are ‘occupied’.

Would lots of people die, and would it be terrible if an environmental catastrophe occurred? You bet. But killing all humans is even less plausible than killing all ticks, or all roaches. Humans, the most lethal species on the planet, keeps trying and failing to do so.

Short of melting the mantle underneath us anyway. We do have some folks living in a space station. Probably not enough though.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't really matter, because you're taking agency away from people. You say that you know better and everyone should be at the mercy of the system. But the system isn't perfect.

People don't need firearm agency. It won't fix unresponsive governments. Gun ownership just makes society measurably worse to stoke fragile egos.

>It won't fix unresponsive governments.

Neither will anything else. Ultimately it's your life and you're the only one that's going to have to defend yourself at a random time. If a crime is committed against you then you're just a statistic for the government. Nothing more.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luckily, such innate drive and desire to dominate can be funnelled into something more productive and less detrimental to others. Instead of becoming a president and starting wars of aggression, why not try sports? How about becoming an academic, an expert in some esoteric field, and spend your days acquiring intellectual territory and terrorising your intellectual opponents? Or use your greed to start a business tha…

> why not try sports? Being good at athletics requires specific good genetics. > acquiring intellectual territory Analytical intellect is not a valued trait in the current society. It will not increase your status in most cases. It actively works against you in certain social structures. Unless your intellectual territory grants you significant material benefits, there's no use out of it.

> Analytical intellect is not a valued trait in the current society.

What society? I see plenty of people in whose eyes intellect is valued. Who cares about the rest?

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah… but if it hasn’t happened by now (after 70+ years), that tells you something .

It has happened. Twice. Russia-China in 1969, and Pakistan-India in 1999. Arguably one should count the Cuban missile crisis too.

No, it hasn’t. We’re talking about nuclear weapons being used.

The fact that we’ve had conflicts that didn’t go nuclear is even more to my point.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#215
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are firearms the only way for people to be defended?

To a first approximation, yes. Other means of defense either require significant physical strength, or are barely effective at all.

I live in a country with barely any gun ownership and I feel safe. I feel no need to own a gun, and neither does anyone I know. Are you sure this is not your cultural bias speaking?

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't need firearm agency. It won't fix unresponsive governments. Gun ownership just makes society measurably worse to stoke fragile egos.

> It won't fix unresponsive governments. Neither will anything else. Ultimately it's your life and you're the only one that's going to have to defend yourself at a random time. If a crime is committed against you then you're just a statistic for the government. Nothing more.

Odds are carrying a gun means you and your loved ones are more likely to be hurt than saved.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#217
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weaker version of madman scenario is a head of state believing they can use nukes in a limited scope to achieve its political goals. Imagine this scenario: the war in Ukraine goes for some more time, Russia starts to have economic problems and is desperate to settle it (without having to compromise), force Ukraine to surrender and demand sanctions to be lifted. So he uses a couple of small tactical nukes along th…

Russia that knows that China and India will not accept a nuclear first use in an offensive war. More than that, nuking Ukraine would also the drive everyone else still dealing with Russia far far away, probably even Iran. Also, if Russia uses nukes to get a favourable deal, presumably involving conquering some parts of Ukraine, why would they nuke the land they plan to loot?

> drive everyone else still dealing with Russia far far away

It may be wishful thinking, because in reality in may drive these countries even closer, especially if using nukes will help Russia achieve its goals.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has happened. Twice. Russia-China in 1969, and Pakistan-India in 1999. Arguably one should count the Cuban missile crisis too.

No, it hasn’t. We’re talking about nuclear weapons being used. The fact that we’ve had conflicts that didn’t go nuclear is even more to my point.

"War between nuclear powers doesn't happen any more" was the quote at the top of this thread.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah… but if it hasn’t happened by now (after 70+ years), that tells you something .

70 years is not a useful timeframe for analysis of human warfare. Historically speaking a 70 year peace could be considered brief. Recall that empires have lasted thousands of years, city states have warred on and off for centuries, warlords have emerged with a cadence measured in centuries and great conquests on a cadence of thousands of years. 70 years is a blip. Compare that to the 6 known close calls where all-ou…

> I’m not sure the invention of nuclear weapons was a net positive for the world.

It was never an option that nuclear weapons wouldn't be invented. The only question was who will invent and use it first.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#220
post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time Switzerland has been invaded? Or at war? And I am sure that Swiss men don't feel like peace is any threat to their manliness either.

Helps when you're willing to bank Nazis gold while the rest of the continent was being conquered or trying to resist. Also helps to have US led NATO provide cover against the Soviets.

They also banked plenty of English gold too :-) That's what "neutrality" means; you are not neutral if you refuse to do business with one of the warring parties.
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