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The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

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Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#381

Post by TheNewAndy »

sysadmindotfail wrote: post #367
altacc wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

>There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance. I'll likely mangle the explanation but this sort of policy does not fair well when there is a large divide between have/have-not and little/no social safety net. If you are poverty level you will be forever stuck in this cycle: Ticket/fine, court, loss of income, etc. What might work is simply granting free access below a certain income threshold.

How does putting NFC in the tickets prevent this?

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#382

Post by account42 »

grishka wrote: post #235
chgs wrote: post #123

Mifare is what’s been used in London’s Oyster cards for 20 years (not the ultralight ones mind), and Hong Kong for even longer. However oyster really is in its way out for most uses. contactless and especially a phone is far more convenient for non season use, and far less wasteful.

Isn't Mifare in different forms a de-facto standard for NFC subway tickets around the world? St Petersburg uses Mifare Classic (and tokens), Moscow also uses Mifare Classic for the refillable Troika card and Mifare Ultralight for disposable ones, Dubai "nol" card is a Mifare Desfire, Los Angeles "tap" card is a Mifare Classic, and, yes, the London Oyster is a Mifare Desfire EV1. Yes I actually went through my stack o…

That's a lot more MIFARE Classic than I would have expected considering that reader support for those is a lot less guaranteed these days. I guess a lot of them might be legacy systems.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#383

Post by jazzyjackson »

joenot443 wrote: post #365
altacc wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

Most North American cities sadly don’t operate at the level of trust required for a system like that to work, as much as I agree it would be better for everyone.

san francisco operates at the level of IDGAF that allows people of all income to ride buses and trams without a ticket

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#384

Post by lxgr »

account42 wrote: post #379
lxgr wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's no longer the case: Many of the newer single-use ticket ICs (including the MIFARE Ultralight one mentioned in the article) actually support data storage and (very) basic cloning protection.

That the chips support data storage doesn't mean that that feature is used. There are systems that use MIFARE Ultralight cards for the UID alone just because they are cheap and easily sourced.

Definitely, but my point is that that’s not the only way to do it.

You can also store only an ID in a QR code, but you could also fit more information and a digital signature of it in there.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#385

Post by account42 »

pluc wrote: post #364
elric wrote: post #333

Free public transport would make all of this stuff unnecessary.

There is no such thing as free public transport.

There is also no such thing as public transport fully funded by ticket sales. If there are large government subsidies then it is a valid question if all the costs associated with ticketing are worth it.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#386

Post by xmcqdpt2 »

Delk wrote: post #374
solarized wrote: post #324

To peoples asking: "Why not just QR codes?" Again it's all about latency. QR codes take longer when you tap them at the gate: opening the app, waiting for the scanner to adjust, connecting to inet. While NFC handle these tasks almost instantly. A big difference in super busy places where queues are a nightmare. Again, this problem wouldn't exist if we can optimize WFH methods. We don't need to solving "physical probl…

I'm not sure that necessarily explains the need for single-use NFC tickets, though. There could be a more durable serial-use or permanent card with NFC that regular commuters could buy, and if those commuters are the vast majority of rush hour passengers, it might not be such a problem if single-use tickets had a slightly slower system. Of course that'd mean having two recognition mechanisms, so the operator might op…

We have those, with two recognition systems. The system the article describes is for the low count, disposable fares (a few tickets or a 3 day pass). Most people in Montreal have a chip card (the OPUS) which is reusable (and 5$ to buy).

The OPUS is also super interesting because it's a stored value card that holds the tokens on the card as opposed to a simple ID. The system was developed when cellular connectivity was still spotty, so they needed a card that would work on buses without internet access. It's pretty bad from a UX point of view though: you can only store a few different kind of fares, you can't recharge the card online (until recently you had to go to a terminal to do it, now there is a NFC phone app), you can't declare a card stolen, etc.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#388

Post by dnate »

grugagag wrote: post #380
skeeter2020 wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100 Euros for a travel story you'll tell years into the future, and funding the tourism economy - win-win!

100 Euros per person. A group of 7 would be 700 and that is only one mishap, there could be multiple per day..

yet another reason not to visit Paris, win-win!

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#389

Post by bluGill »

joenot443 wrote: post #365
altacc wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some places, like Oslo's metro, tram & bus systems, the solution is that there are no ticket barriers, you're trusted to have bought a ticket for your journey. There are occasional ticket checks with big fines for non-compliance.

Most North American cities sadly don’t operate at the level of trust required for a system like that to work, as much as I agree it would be better for everyone.

Many cities in North America do. The key is the fine for not having a ticket is high enough that you are on average much better off having a ticket. Generally this works out to enough random inspections that the average person is checked once a month, and the fine for not having a ticket works out to the cost of a 3 month pass. The exact numbers are of course subject to debate, but the above should give any city a good starting place they can play with.

IMHO, if you have fare gates they need to be tied into a parent control system so that parents to limit where their kids are allowed to go alone. I've never seen the implemented and the details are important to get right.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#390

Post by account42 »

lxgr wrote: post #33

> There are multiple NFC standards with differences in speed, protocol, and range, including NFC-A, NFC-B, NFC-C, NFC-F, and NFC-V. The MIFARE Ultralight cards use NFC-A, which is defined by the standard "ISO/IEC 14443 Type A". Pet peeve: Calling these chips "NFC" is a bit misleading. NFC-A isn't defined by ISO 14443-A, but builds on it. NFC is an umbrella standard that defines a way of storing structured data on a w…

Did you google all of that on your PC?
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