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Why Django Sucks

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Re: Why Django Sucks

#81

Post by xxpor »

detst wrote: post #37
kmfrk wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoelski has a great rant about frameworks and the concept of abstractions ad nauseam: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.219431 . In a way, frameworks are inherently stupid, but who's to decide where between assembly language and x layer abstraction people should work in? I think people who criticize Django have yet to make up their minds about what a framework is all about, and what, if anything,…

> he has a problem with the concept of frameworks I'd say it's more of a problem with frameworks as they exist today. I'd like to see a movement to REST API service frameworks with some level of cooperation to get compatibility for standard client libraries. Everything then gets built around services: from static site generation to single-page apps, third-party developer APIs to admin interfaces. Then you'd have flex…

Jeff Bezos recognized this 10 years ago:

https://plus.google.com/112678702228711889851/posts/eVeouesv...

His Big Mandate went something along these lines:

1) All teams will henceforth expose their data and functionality through service interfaces.

2) Teams must communicate with each other through these interfaces.

3) There will be no other form of interprocess communication allowed: no direct linking, no direct reads of another team's data store, no shared-memory model, no back-doors whatsoever. The only communication allowed is via service interface calls over the network.

4) It doesn't matter what technology they use. HTTP, Corba, Pubsub, custom protocols -- doesn't matter. Bezos doesn't care.

5) All service interfaces, without exception, must be designed from the ground up to be externalizable. That is to say, the team must plan and design to be able to expose the interface to developers in the outside world. No exceptions.

6) Anyone who doesn't do this will be fired.

7) Thank you; have a nice day!

Re: Why Django Sucks

#82

Post by acdha »

raverbashing wrote: post #7

Personally I'd say: - Error handling: Django error page is great, unless of course it's a AJAX request. Pylons does this in a much smarter way - Django ORM is awful. Easy to use yes, but awful - Django Auth is a "good intention" but awful implementation - Django templates are sloooooow. Jinja 2 is an order of magnitude faster Amongst other warts Also, the author apparently found the hard way: don't use Django as an a…

You're quick to toss out unsupported assertions: e.g. calling the ORM awful just sounds naive and microbenchmark claims about the template system assume that it's a common bottleneck, which simply isn't true.

Put another way: I inherited a site where someone noticed that a view was slow and switched everything to Jinja2 for magic pixie dust speed ups. This made almost no difference but did complicate maintenance and require reinventing common Django template tags and filters. I joined the project later and actually made the page much (50x) faster by actually profiling and not executing 8,000 SQL queries.

Jinja2 is a great project but I have yet to run into a case where the Django/Jinja debate in any way affected performance significantly. Pick the one which causes you the least support grief and worry about problems you've actually measured.

Re: Why Django Sucks

#83

Post by njharman »

brown9-2 wrote: post #66

I'm confused about the assertion that Flask is only 800 lines of code. Counting Flask v0.8 with cloc yields twice that: $ perl cloc-1.56.pl flask --exclude-dir=testsuite,ext 18 text files. 18 unique files. 114 files ignored. http://cloc.sourceforge.net v 1.56 T=0.5 s (36.0 files/s, 8008.0 lines/s) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Language files blank comment code -------…

> I'm confused about the assertion that Flask is only 800 lines of code.

It's called "spin". It's common practice for people trying to sell you on something.

Re: Why Django Sucks

#84

Post by adorton »

raverbashing wrote: post #7

Personally I'd say: - Error handling: Django error page is great, unless of course it's a AJAX request. Pylons does this in a much smarter way - Django ORM is awful. Easy to use yes, but awful - Django Auth is a "good intention" but awful implementation - Django templates are sloooooow. Jinja 2 is an order of magnitude faster Amongst other warts Also, the author apparently found the hard way: don't use Django as an a…

What is wrong with django's ORM? I'm not being flip; I'm honestly curious.

Re: Why Django Sucks

#85

Post by tferris »

This is not about Django and why it sucks. It's a refreshing take on monolithic vs. micro frameworks and it's nice to see that a micro framework like Flask gets the attention it deserves.

I believe that monolithic framework are aged too. Django and also Rails as monolithic as they are force you into given patterns, even if you can choose specific modules. I made my first experiences with a highly modular micro framework (Node with Express) some weeks ago and I have to say that I don't want to go back. Even if it seems that you have to reinvent the wheel sometimes (but in reality you don't) your application reflects your use case much better, it's more fun and you are again programming yourself—deciding on architecture, structure and design patterns.

Re: Why Django Sucks

#86

Post by bryanh »

Traitor scum! Such an intense title after such a nice conversation on the Django Podcast... [1]

Of course I'm kidding because these are valid critiques. Django's code base has a bad case of introducing really hard to debug interactions. But, to be fair, those are fairly rare.

However, as a Django lover I must say that Flask is missing a lot of what I love about Django: sane pre-built options for getting you to 90% functionality quickly. That last 10% can be difficult, but that is better than a more difficult 90%.

One thing that is rather annoying with Django is the learning curve (there's a lot in there), but the docs are so good that it isn't that bad (and one could argue that Flask is harder to learn because it means learning SQLAlchemy, Werkzueg, etc... too).

As he mentions in the slide, best tool for the job. Flask is certainly more Pythonic (IMO) and beats Django very handily for simple apps, but the ability to skip reinventing the wheel will keep a lot of people in the Django camp for the foreseeable future.

[1] http://3rdaverad.io/shows/django-podcast/episodes/deployment...

Re: Why Django Sucks

#87

Post by [deleted] »

raverbashing wrote: post #7

Personally I'd say: - Error handling: Django error page is great, unless of course it's a AJAX request. Pylons does this in a much smarter way - Django ORM is awful. Easy to use yes, but awful - Django Auth is a "good intention" but awful implementation - Django templates are sloooooow. Jinja 2 is an order of magnitude faster Amongst other warts Also, the author apparently found the hard way: don't use Django as an a…

[deleted]

Re: Why Django Sucks

#88

Post by UK-AL »

MatthewPhillips wrote: post #58
kmfrk wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spoelski has a great rant about frameworks and the concept of abstractions ad nauseam: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.219431 . In a way, frameworks are inherently stupid, but who's to decide where between assembly language and x layer abstraction people should work in? I think people who criticize Django have yet to make up their minds about what a framework is all about, and what, if anything,…

The problem is not frameworks; the problem is object oriented programming. Simply put, OOP lends itself to kitchen-sink frameworks because it is the only way to really share code in OOP. We write these large hierarchy of objects and then, because we have to carefully maintain state, we mark most of it as private, or sealed. Then we give precise instructions on how to consume and use the code, and even more precise in…

Well that's strange because Django didn't use much OO either when I used it in the past, only for the ORM.

Re: Why Django Sucks

#89

Post by nashequilibrium »

raverbashing wrote: post #7

Personally I'd say: - Error handling: Django error page is great, unless of course it's a AJAX request. Pylons does this in a much smarter way - Django ORM is awful. Easy to use yes, but awful - Django Auth is a "good intention" but awful implementation - Django templates are sloooooow. Jinja 2 is an order of magnitude faster Amongst other warts Also, the author apparently found the hard way: don't use Django as an a…

'Also, the author apparently found the hard way: don't use Django as an api server'

Is this true even if you use Tastypie with Django?

Re: Why Django Sucks

#90

Post by nashequilibrium »

raverbashing wrote: post #7

Personally I'd say: - Error handling: Django error page is great, unless of course it's a AJAX request. Pylons does this in a much smarter way - Django ORM is awful. Easy to use yes, but awful - Django Auth is a "good intention" but awful implementation - Django templates are sloooooow. Jinja 2 is an order of magnitude faster Amongst other warts Also, the author apparently found the hard way: don't use Django as an a…

'Also, the author apparently found the hard way: don't use Django as an api server'

Is this true even if you use Tastypie with Django?

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