I'm really tired of seeing memes & my little pony references in presentations. I thought we were adults?
Adults can't have a sense of humor?
He didn't say that.
Why Django Sucks
61–70 of 206 posts
Re: Why Django Sucks
#62Problem: Django has features. These features, horrors , reuse each other's capabilities. Solution: Use something that has no features. I'm not sure myself how sarcastic I'm being, to be honest. There's some truth in there too (or I wouldn't have posted this). But of course your microframework doesn't have any dependency issues. Rip all those things out of Django and it wouldn't have any dependencies either. Put them…
It's difficult to refute this line of thinking, except in practice. In practice, I think large frameworks are eventually pretty terrible. It's too easy to compromise your business needs in small ways because the framework offers you something close-enough. Whether those compromises come in the form of over-coupling (which they always do with these frameworks), or in other ways like compromised URL design, query perfo…
I've been writing web apps for a long time and for many different companies of different sizes. I've never, ever, seen a homegrown setup that was in better shape than the average rails app after a few years. Maybe your experience is different.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#63Earlier quoted context omitted.
You sound institutionalized. Django is indeed awesome for having a ton of features immediately. Of course, once you need to start changing those features you realize you have to dislocate your shoulder to do so. Django is badass for what it is intended to do: be a kitchen sink. Flask is badass for what it is intended to do: be a platform for composable applications. If you ever need to reason about the internals of y…
"You sound institutionalized." I'm not sure what that even means, but I suspect the thing that disproves it is "The last website I built was in Yesod.". And while it may be in some sense targeted to fill the Django space, at the present time (and certainly at the time I worked in it) it was more like Flask and a couple of things lightly tacked on. No, my main point is that Django is what Django is, and while that may…
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Re: Why Django Sucks
#64I'm not quite sure I understand slide 48 which talks about constraints. Does a text editor have more or less constraints than an IDE? I would argue that it has less constraints, however I assume he is arguing that text editors are better which implies that they have more constraints. The same goes for Pen&Paper vs digital notes. Surely being able to write in any direction at any size with any style as well as draw means there are less constraints than simply typing a digital note. Am I misunderstanding which side of these examples he's actually advocating? How does OSX v Linux enter into this whatsoever?
Re: Why Django Sucks
#65Monolithic frameworks complect things -- see Rich Hickey's talk "Simple Made Easy" (http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Simple-Made-Easy).
Monoliths also lock you into a certain paradigm. Django locks you into a RDBMS if you want to hook into all of Django's components like auth, admin, etc. And being locked into a paradigm limits the types of problems you can solve and makes it difficult to shift when a new paradigm emerges.
We're in a period of rapid development in datastore technology. If you're locked into a relational database, it makes it difficult to switch and take advantage of these developments. Loosely coupled components like Flask follow in the Unix tradition and free you from these bounds.
Django was well positioned 10 years ago when the RDBMS ruled, but with the proliferation of new DBs and data storage services, it's not well aligned with modern architectures.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#66I'm confused about the assertion that Flask is only 800 lines of code.
Counting Flask v0.8 with cloc yields twice that:
$ perl cloc-1.56.pl flask --exclude-dir=testsuite,ext
18 text files.
18 unique files.
114 files ignored.
http://cloc.sourceforge.net v 1.56 T=0.5 s (36.0 files/s, 8008.0 lines/s)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Language files blank comment code
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Python 18 694 1748 1562
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUM: 18 694 1748 1562
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
$ perl cloc-1.56.pl werkzeug --exclude-dir=testsuite,ext,debug,contrib
20 text files.
20 unique files.
126 files ignored.
http://cloc.sourceforge.net v 1.56 T=1.0 s (20.0 files/s, 13460.0 lines/s)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Language files blank comment code
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Python 20 2307 4277 6876
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SUM: 20 2307 4277 6876
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: Why Django Sucks
#67Problem: Django has features. These features, horrors , reuse each other's capabilities. Solution: Use something that has no features. I'm not sure myself how sarcastic I'm being, to be honest. There's some truth in there too (or I wouldn't have posted this). But of course your microframework doesn't have any dependency issues. Rip all those things out of Django and it wouldn't have any dependencies either. Put them…
Agree - This paradigm plays out in every development effort I've ever been apart of...
1) Project starts out relatively agnostic and casts a very wide net
2) Features start to mature and while you are servicing one use case, you are somewhat unknowingly making your product unsuited to certain different future use cases that may or may not arise.
Thats just how design decisions work. Django has made design decisions to cater to a certain set of needs and they have obviously been quite successful. I don't even use Django but I can tell it doesn't "suck" just by how many people have told me it has fit their use cases quite well.
I actually wouldn't be surprised if X years down the road Flask becomes much less agnostic as its community consolidates and matures.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#68I'm confused about the assertion that Flask is only 800 lines of code. Counting Flask v0.8 with cloc yields twice that: $ perl cloc-1.56.pl flask --exclude-dir=testsuite,ext 18 text files. 18 unique files. 114 files ignored. http://cloc.sourceforge.net v 1.56 T=0.5 s (36.0 files/s, 8008.0 lines/s) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Language files blank comment code -------…
I haven't done the numbers in a while but from the given ratio I would assume your line checker tool treats docstrings as code. The red part there is for the most part just documentation, not code: https://github.com/mitsuhiko/flask/blob/master/flask/app.py (as an example)
Re: Why Django Sucks
#69I use Django and Flask quite a bit. They are the first two things I go to for building a site. For a small site, usually without a database, I mostly use Flask. For a large site with all the common features like auth and such, I use Django. Yeah, it has its bad points, but that's ok. It's worth suffering through whatever those bad points are because it has one gigantic good point. You don't have to reinvent the wheel…
I had a simple Flask app that need an auth so I wrote my own and I wouldn't quite call it simple. There are so many security concerns. What password hashing algorithm to use (PBKDF2, bcrypt, scrypt, etc). Even the password reset mechanism can be an attack vector if one-time login url is generated poorly and an attacker can generate a large volume of password reset requests.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
wtf is that ? edit: using the current toolchain it's: alembic upgrade head
It's from Flask's recipe section: http://flask.pocoo.org/docs/patterns/sqlite3/#initial-schema... edit: not if you're using sqlite, since alembic doesn't seem to try too hard supporting it.
I would still recommend SQLAlchemy :-)