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The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

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Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#201

Post by rtpg »

Reason077 wrote: post #167
randunel wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a noticeable delay between contactless cards and oysters. Some people I know prefer oyster cards simply because they open the gates faster, in spite of having to top them off all the time. I'm looking forward to not having to choose one trade-off over the other.

It’s noticeable if you’re used to the instant response of Oyster, but we’re talking about a few hundred extra milliseconds. Not something that bothers you once you’re accustomed to it. It’s still fast enough that it will read my Apple Watch before the gate starts to close from the passenger in front of me. One saved trip to an Oyster top-up machine will make up for a lifetime of contactless NFC latency!

At peak hours it can definitely be a problem, you really need the entire pipeline to work well. There's going to be somebody behind you most of the time, and you really don't want people stuck at the gates.

In Japan credit card transactions routinely take a couple seconds. Imagine each person taking 5 seconds to go through the gate! I think what trials for credit card payments in transportation services there are doing is simply not processing the transaction inline, and just doing it after the fact (assuming it will go through).

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#202

Post by rtpg »

lxgr wrote: post #47
BOOSTERHIDROGEN wrote: post #9

I would like a comprehensive analysis of FeliCa.

Same here! It seems like a fascinating system, especially in the federated way in which it's being used by various Japanese transit agencies and issuers. Compared to MIFARE, it was definitely ahead of its time. Unfortunately, most things I could find are in Japanese, as expected; I suspect that the really interesting parts aren't public, as usual in this industry (there's still a lot of belief in security by obscurit…

It's not really on the technical side of thigns, but the unification of IC cards across transportation companies has a good write up [0] that has a bunch of fun details. My favorite thing is how the people working on the project just had a bunch of card readers from various transport companies all in one room.

[0] https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr62/pdf/6-15_web.pdf

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#203

Post by rtpg »

bobthepanda wrote: post #129
kens wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the e-waste aspect either, but realistically, the chip is so minuscule that the amount of waste is trivial compared to almost anything else you might discard. The chip is literally the size of a grain of salt. The other factor is that people who use tickets regularly would use the rechargeable plastic cards, rather than the disposable tickets, so the amount of waste is reduced.

I don’t really see why a chip is needed at all for single use tickets. Those have existed forever and there are a plethora of non-chip options ranging from the simple holepunch to the optical printed barcode or QR code.

throughput, throughput, throughput.

Magstripes tend to work not so well when you have the ticket in your pocket for a couple days, printed codes involve people futzing with cameras. You can use a sort of card ingestion system to line up a QR code or the like... but those things are complicated and break down a lot! You end up needing staff to constantly be opening it and unclogging it. This works alright if you have like 6 turnstiles, less so when you have 2 or 3.

Obviously you can work with those models anyways, and plenty of transportation networks do! But if your rush hour involves moving a million+ people, you really do need this stuff to go fast.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#204

Post by Aeolun »

oopsallmagic wrote: post #194
ghaff wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting better but, in my experience, once metro systems got away from manned booths and tokens, the systems worked fine for commuters but led to lots of fumbling and long lines for tourists. Trains in the UK still have a certain amount of "Which of these tickets/receipts go where?" while a line of irritated locals is building up behind you. Fortunately, also being the UK, someone will help you if you're struggl…

Is that the fault of the system, or the fault of the tourists for visiting a new place and not reading up on local customs?

“Make the damn train work” is not a local custom. Aside from that the UK rail system is so complicated and expensive you’d expect a manned gate at every station at the least.

£150 from London to Leeds?! I can fly halfway across Europe for less…

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#205

Post by varenc »

oopsallmagic wrote: post #194
ghaff wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting better but, in my experience, once metro systems got away from manned booths and tokens, the systems worked fine for commuters but led to lots of fumbling and long lines for tourists. Trains in the UK still have a certain amount of "Which of these tickets/receipts go where?" while a line of irritated locals is building up behind you. Fortunately, also being the UK, someone will help you if you're struggl…

Is that the fault of the system, or the fault of the tourists for visiting a new place and not reading up on local customs?

I always read up on how the local transit system works when I visit a new place. But that’s never adequately prepared me to smoothly use a public bus like a local would the very first time.

Some transit systems are just inherently more confusing than others. It doesn’t matter to the locals who know the quirks, but that doesn’t mean something can’t be improved. NYC has a great subway system, but I find the signage and general wayfinding quite lacking. Tokyo’s system is on a similar level of complexity but has excellent wayfinding and is generally much easier for a tourist to use.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#206

Post by kens »

egl2021 wrote: post #193

Phosphoric acid, hydrochloric acid, and boiling sulfuric acid: I should have paid more attention in chemistry lab. This is a neat project and answered a lot of questions.

It's not as scary as it sounds :-) For a chip this small, I only need a few drops of chemical, which cuts the risk way down. I don't have beakers full of hydrofluoric acid and red fuming nitric acid, like the real decappers.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#207

Post by Reason077 »

rtpg wrote: post #201
Reason077 wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s noticeable if you’re used to the instant response of Oyster, but we’re talking about a few hundred extra milliseconds. Not something that bothers you once you’re accustomed to it. It’s still fast enough that it will read my Apple Watch before the gate starts to close from the passenger in front of me. One saved trip to an Oyster top-up machine will make up for a lifetime of contactless NFC latency!

At peak hours it can definitely be a problem, you really need the entire pipeline to work well. There's going to be somebody behind you most of the time, and you really don't want people stuck at the gates. In Japan credit card transactions routinely take a couple seconds. Imagine each person taking 5 seconds to go through the gate! I think what trials for credit card payments in transportation services there are doi…

Yes, the TfL system does a partial authorisation. It checks the card is valid and not blocked etc but doesn’t necessarily do a real-time authorisation all the way to the issuing bank.

If you try to use a card that is valid but has no available balance/credit, it might work for the first ride but then be blocked when you try to use it for the return trip.

Fares are batched throughout the day and you are charged once, overnight, for all rides that day (after applying any multi-ride discounts, etc).

This is different from some other cities where I’ve used contactless payments and they’d charge you immediately for each ride, giving you lots of annoying little charges on your bank statement!

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#208

Post by lxgr »

sircastor wrote: post #195
lxgr wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of the systems that account/payment card based ticketing is now replacing used to allow cash top-ups for their stored value cards.

But you can still purchase these one-time use cards with cash? That’s the case with my local transit system. Are there places that are eliminating cash altogether?

In NYC, there will soon be no more single ride tickets.

There’s the OMNY card, and I believe the original plan was to outsource sales and top-ups to third-party stores, but lately I’ve also seen some vending machines for that in some stations, so maybe they’re going back a bit on that idea.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#209

Post by lxgr »

rtpg wrote: post #202
lxgr wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same here! It seems like a fascinating system, especially in the federated way in which it's being used by various Japanese transit agencies and issuers. Compared to MIFARE, it was definitely ahead of its time. Unfortunately, most things I could find are in Japanese, as expected; I suspect that the really interesting parts aren't public, as usual in this industry (there's still a lot of belief in security by obscurit…

It's not really on the technical side of thigns, but the unification of IC cards across transportation companies has a good write up [0] that has a bunch of fun details. My favorite thing is how the people working on the project just had a bunch of card readers from various transport companies all in one room. [0] https://www.ejrcf.or.jp/jrtr/jrtr62/pdf/6-15_web.pdf

That’s great, thank you!

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#210

Post by mjg59 »

amluto wrote: post #180
kens wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't find a nice price breakdown. I'd expect the magnetic stripe tickets to be cheaper to manufacture, but since the NFC tickets cost pennies, there isn't a lot of money to save. I agree with you that magnetic stripes would have a much higher maintenance cost due to the mechanical aspect and the read/write head. Optical scanning seems less likely to work the first time, based on my experience with airplane chec…

I’ve occasionally gotten to watch transit workers open up and service the magnetic stripe card readers in the BART. Those things are complicated . It may well cost less to outright replace a contactless reader module on a fare gate than to service a magnetic stripe ticket machine once. Even an Adafruit PN532 board is only $40.

BART stopped accepting paper tickets last year, presumably because of the complexity (not just the ticket barriers, but also the fare machines and add value machines that also had to handle them): https://www.bart.gov/news/articles/2023/news20230911
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