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The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

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Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#191

Post by lxgr »

lmz wrote: post #151
Tijdreiziger wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is the protocol used in credit cards related at all? In e.g. London and the Netherlands, the readers were upgraded to support tapping in and out with a debit/credit card or Apple/Google Pay. However, Apple also seems to have an ‘Express’ mode, which even works when the battery is empty (‘Power Reserve’). It seems to me that there must be three protocols: the one for the disposable and stored-value tickets (ISO 1444…

EMV (specifically EMV contactless) is also based on ISO 14443, it's more like an application layer protocol on top of it. Apple Pay Express is just Apple Pay without the need for the full system UI: "If iOS isn’t in use because iPhone needs to be charged, there may still be enough power in the battery to support Express Card transactions." it interacts the same way as the physical card equivalent (otherwise they woul…

Both EMV and MIFARE (and similar solutions) indeed sit on top of ISO 14443-4 (or -3 for the older/lighter MIFARE versions), but they're conceptually very different:

EMV is an account-based payments protocol, and the card only confirms its presence in a transaction; balances are managed on the backend. The reader does not authenticate itself to the card at all.

MIFARE is a stored-value service and as such keeps track of the card's balance on-chip. This requires another smartcard on the reader side, holding the necessary keys for mutual authentication, but allows two-sided offline transactions, which is quite useful for transit applications (e.g. buses dropping out of network coverage, allowing higher volumes even during short server outages etc.)

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#192

Post by teruakohatu »

amluto wrote: post #180
kens wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't find a nice price breakdown. I'd expect the magnetic stripe tickets to be cheaper to manufacture, but since the NFC tickets cost pennies, there isn't a lot of money to save. I agree with you that magnetic stripes would have a much higher maintenance cost due to the mechanical aspect and the read/write head. Optical scanning seems less likely to work the first time, based on my experience with airplane chec…

I’ve occasionally gotten to watch transit workers open up and service the magnetic stripe card readers in the BART. Those things are complicated . It may well cost less to outright replace a contactless reader module on a fare gate than to service a magnetic stripe ticket machine once. Even an Adafruit PN532 board is only $40.

And if a machine jams not only do you need staff to spend hours to repair it, but you need to pay staff, or contractors, to do it.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#194

Post by oopsallmagic »

ghaff wrote: post #149
michaelt wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most metro stations have a much simpler way for travellers to figure out what to do: of loads people who do know how it works, ahead of and beside you.

It's getting better but, in my experience, once metro systems got away from manned booths and tokens, the systems worked fine for commuters but led to lots of fumbling and long lines for tourists. Trains in the UK still have a certain amount of "Which of these tickets/receipts go where?" while a line of irritated locals is building up behind you. Fortunately, also being the UK, someone will help you if you're struggl…

Is that the fault of the system, or the fault of the tourists for visiting a new place and not reading up on local customs?

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#195

Post by sircastor »

lxgr wrote: post #179
Sytten wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What privacy implication? You already buy the NFC with a credit or debit card so if they want to track the card use they can.

Many of the systems that account/payment card based ticketing is now replacing used to allow cash top-ups for their stored value cards.

But you can still purchase these one-time use cards with cash? That’s the case with my local transit system. Are there places that are eliminating cash altogether?

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#196

Post by edub »

amluto wrote: post #180
kens wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't find a nice price breakdown. I'd expect the magnetic stripe tickets to be cheaper to manufacture, but since the NFC tickets cost pennies, there isn't a lot of money to save. I agree with you that magnetic stripes would have a much higher maintenance cost due to the mechanical aspect and the read/write head. Optical scanning seems less likely to work the first time, based on my experience with airplane chec…

I’ve occasionally gotten to watch transit workers open up and service the magnetic stripe card readers in the BART. Those things are complicated . It may well cost less to outright replace a contactless reader module on a fare gate than to service a magnetic stripe ticket machine once. Even an Adafruit PN532 board is only $40.

I've not worked with the Adafruit PN532, but for an extra $10 you can get a Pepper C1 USB from Eccel which is very easy to work with. It is a stand-alone device, so you don't have to connect it to anything but power. Has WiFi & BT built in and has a built-in web server to configure it with, you can have it make calls via REST, MQTT, WebSocket.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#197

Post by wenc »

randunel wrote: post #138
chgs wrote: post #123

Mifare is what’s been used in London’s Oyster cards for 20 years (not the ultralight ones mind), and Hong Kong for even longer. However oyster really is in its way out for most uses. contactless and especially a phone is far more convenient for non season use, and far less wasteful.

There's a noticeable delay between contactless cards and oysters. Some people I know prefer oyster cards simply because they open the gates faster, in spite of having to top them off all the time. I'm looking forward to not having to choose one trade-off over the other.

Apple Express Transit works with Octopus cards.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/118625

You don't have to unlock your phone -- just tap. If you have an Apple watch, just put your wrist to the reader.

I use this all the time in NYC and it's so fast.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#199

Post by varenc »

AbraKdabra wrote: post #198

Yeah, I read it's cheap, like, really cheap... But I refuse to believe this is cheaper and simpler than a piece of paper with a barcode, why add complexity to something that has to be discarded after like, 1 minute?

The user experience seems superior with an NFC chip like this. It’s easier and more reliable for the user to tap a card than scan a bar code. It’s also probably cheaper and simpler for the subway system to use a NFC reader for everything since they already need to read NFC for their non-disposable tickets or tap-to-pay. And as a user it seems nice knowing that no matter your type of ticket you tap them all the same way.

Re: The tiny chip that powers Montreal subway tickets

#200

Post by mattkrause »

dheera wrote: post #35
bobthepanda wrote: post #3

This wasn’t super obvious to me until later in the article but this is about the single use tickets. Neat stuff, though I can’t say I love the concept of e-waste NFC.

I feel like 99% of people would not benefit from single use public transportation tickets. Even if you are a tourist, if you use public transportation once, there is a high likelihood you will use it multiple more times, in which case it makes sense to get a regular card. Most systems let you return the card and get the deposit back if you'd like. Personally I collect the cards instead because I have a tendency to re…

I’m pretty sure that the Montreal paper tickets are non-refillable but can “contain” multiple rides or a pass (weekend, weekly, etc) if you buy them together.

I’d bet a lot of them are sold at the airport: the fare to downtown comes with a 24-hr pass for other buses and metros.

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