I'm really tired of seeing memes & my little pony references in presentations. I thought we were adults?
Really, drunken pony parties are 100% relevant to a talk about django. I don't think the slide deck would be complete without it.
Why Django Sucks
31–40 of 206 posts
Re: Why Django Sucks
#32Problem: Django has features. These features, horrors , reuse each other's capabilities. Solution: Use something that has no features. I'm not sure myself how sarcastic I'm being, to be honest. There's some truth in there too (or I wouldn't have posted this). But of course your microframework doesn't have any dependency issues. Rip all those things out of Django and it wouldn't have any dependencies either. Put them…
Spoelski has a great rant about frameworks and the concept of abstractions ad nauseam: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.219431 . In a way, frameworks are inherently stupid, but who's to decide where between assembly language and x layer abstraction people should work in? I think people who criticize Django have yet to make up their minds about what a framework is all about, and what, if anything,…
Actually yeah. Great point. I think Django rules for publishing, or building sites where your general technical competition might be Wordpress.
It's frankly an awkward fit for loads of web applications. It seems to me (note: Django guy, not RoR guy) that the Rails stuff has adapted much better to applications that fall well outside of the blog/publishing sphere... but maybe that's a false impression.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#33Problem: Django has features. These features, horrors , reuse each other's capabilities. Solution: Use something that has no features. I'm not sure myself how sarcastic I'm being, to be honest. There's some truth in there too (or I wouldn't have posted this). But of course your microframework doesn't have any dependency issues. Rip all those things out of Django and it wouldn't have any dependencies either. Put them…
Spoelski has a great rant about frameworks and the concept of abstractions ad nauseam: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.219431 . In a way, frameworks are inherently stupid, but who's to decide where between assembly language and x layer abstraction people should work in? I think people who criticize Django have yet to make up their minds about what a framework is all about, and what, if anything,…
Who's piling on Django? It has flaws and weaknesses just like anything. It is a huge codebase that tries to be everything for everyone, and it succeeds about being almost everything for almost everyone, which is great.
But it can be very difficult to do relatively simple things with Django sometimes, mostly in the admin pages. Admittedly, this is a pain point people bring on themselves by trying to do too much there, but it's a big red swollen example of how too much interleaving and complexity make it painful or impossible to reason about what's happening.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#34I think the "Constraints are Good" slide is massively oversimplified. Especially the "editors vs IDEs" and "primes vs zooms" bullets.
Just for one example: stepping through an IDE's debugger, integrated into the code editor, to track down a problem is incredibly handy. It's a habit I picked up while living in Eclipse doing Java work, and why most of my Rails work is now in RubyMine instead of Emacs like it was when I was in school.
And sure, if I had unlimited resources, and wasn't annoyed at all by having to carry around a bunch of primes, and could change lenses in an instant (or was carrying four different bodies too), I'd rather have a set of excellent primes than a zoom.
Very much like how I'd love to be able to integrate (and possibly write myself) a bunch of services to perfectly fit my problem instead of using a framework. But it just isn't very practical for a lot of areas. And then the problem changes, and the purpose-built solution to be adapted... and then this happens a few more time and how perfectly have you maintained your original separations of concerns?
Re: Why Django Sucks
#35Problem: Django has features. These features, horrors , reuse each other's capabilities. Solution: Use something that has no features. I'm not sure myself how sarcastic I'm being, to be honest. There's some truth in there too (or I wouldn't have posted this). But of course your microframework doesn't have any dependency issues. Rip all those things out of Django and it wouldn't have any dependencies either. Put them…
Better Solution: Combine things that do their own jobs.
It actually is what Flask does.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#36Thanks for posting this. I use Django extensively and I never really felt any pain from the tightly coupled monolithic approach, but I always like improving my tools. I will check out Flask. Any suggestions for making it easy to build REST style APIs? Is piston the #1 choice still?
I prefer tastypie. It takes a fair bit of time investment to learn how it does things, but once you do it's powerful.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#37Problem: Django has features. These features, horrors , reuse each other's capabilities. Solution: Use something that has no features. I'm not sure myself how sarcastic I'm being, to be honest. There's some truth in there too (or I wouldn't have posted this). But of course your microframework doesn't have any dependency issues. Rip all those things out of Django and it wouldn't have any dependencies either. Put them…
Spoelski has a great rant about frameworks and the concept of abstractions ad nauseam: http://discuss.joelonsoftware.com/default.asp?joel.3.219431 . In a way, frameworks are inherently stupid, but who's to decide where between assembly language and x layer abstraction people should work in? I think people who criticize Django have yet to make up their minds about what a framework is all about, and what, if anything,…
> he has a problem with the concept of frameworks
I'd say it's more of a problem with frameworks as they exist today. I'd like to see a movement to REST API service frameworks with some level of cooperation to get compatibility for standard client libraries.
Everything then gets built around services: from static site generation to single-page apps, third-party developer APIs to admin interfaces. Then you'd have flexibility to replace any piece of the architecture, whether to get better to performance from a service or to use the latest JS single-page app framework.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#38Problem: Django has features. These features, horrors , reuse each other's capabilities. Solution: Use something that has no features. I'm not sure myself how sarcastic I'm being, to be honest. There's some truth in there too (or I wouldn't have posted this). But of course your microframework doesn't have any dependency issues. Rip all those things out of Django and it wouldn't have any dependencies either. Put them…
You sound institutionalized. Django is indeed awesome for having a ton of features immediately. Of course, once you need to start changing those features you realize you have to dislocate your shoulder to do so. Django is badass for what it is intended to do: be a kitchen sink. Flask is badass for what it is intended to do: be a platform for composable applications. If you ever need to reason about the internals of y…
Exactly.
This was a presentation for a room filled with Django developers that likely use it for just about everything.
The purpose of the talk isn't to bash Django, it was to introduce Django developers to some interesting concepts that are worth exploring and a tool that may suit their needs.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think his point is that this: "You have to go get a third party auth system" is a good thing. That way if the auth implementation needs to change, it can more easily if it's loosely coupled to the application.
Django's auth system is not that hard to hack on if you need to - in most cases you just need to write a custom backend and implement a few methods on it. It's certainly comparable to writing your own, or downloading something and integrating it.
I wrote my own to use SQLAlchemy models you define:
http://tomforb.es/using-a-custom-sqlalchemy-users-model-with...
Its really not that bad or hard to do at all.
Re: Why Django Sucks
#40I'm really tired of seeing memes & my little pony references in presentations. I thought we were adults?
I think the presenter was referring to the Django Pony -- Django's widely known but unofficial mascot -- and not trying to invoke a My Little Pony meme.