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OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

open-emr.org

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Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't seen a single friend who works in a medical profession recommend or feel well supported or feel like their system was well rolled out. I would 100% rather go to a place using open source software, with enthusiasts hope & open improvement iterating forward & leaving the door open to others to improve & build community around. It's a shame that we leave the work of important things locked to a couple far off…

I'm super biased admittedly as I have worked on the implementation side for these big systems but... Try to ask those same friends to agree on the "correct" workflow for some aspect of their clinical work. You won't find agreement in the same state, in the same hospital system, in the same hospital, or even in the same department. I can't claim what is out there is great, but it's like that quote about democracy. It…

> Try to ask those same friends to agree on the "correct" workflow for some aspect of their clinical work.

Does that argue for a two-part design like:

1. APIs for scheduling, billing, lab tests, etc. These are standardized across all health systems.

2. "Workflow" code for a particular health system. This is custom.

Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for sharing your insights. One wonders if the business model for supporting efforts like this could be to provide the support/services, while keeping the code base open source?

I think that would be a good idea and the only way it would work. Unless this is way, way, way more polished you won't see a Mayo Clinic or Cedars-Sinai using something like this. They tried that 20 years ago and it was scrapped for Epic. If it targeted smaller rural access hospitals or smaller practices and sold consulting and hosting services it might work if it way undercut the current bigger players... But this m…

> They tried that 20 years ago and it was scrapped for Epic.

Did the Mayo Clinic use to use something open-source? They switched from Cerner to Epic 6 years ago [0], but that's just switching one closed-source vendor to another.

[0] https://www.healthcareitnews.com/news/mayo-clinic-cio-christ...

Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

#73

There's a saying in hospital tech sales: if you've seen one hospital's stack, you've seen one stack. The sheer amount of bespoke deployments and lack of interoperability in these facilities would blow the average HN reader's mind. And through the inertia of these deployments and their (absolutely necessary) adherence to HIPAA and SoC, getting any kind of competitor in, much less one with the lack of support resources…

I think that, if an OSS EMR takes off, it won't take off in America. We have a lovely combination of high bureaucracy and low standardization.

But another poster here talked about how Frappe Health is getting some traction in Kenya. Developing countries are more price-sensitive, and not as locked-in as US health systems are. So there's some hope there.

Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

#74

OpenEMR seems like it could have a market opportunity, in principle. The EMR market in the US is dominated by two big, unpopular systems (Cerner and Epic). A smaller, nimbler competitor could make inroads among health systems that don't like that duopoly. Does anyone have any stories about setting up / using OpenEMR?

It’s not about the clinical record; it’s about being able to bill insurance companies without getting the claim rejected. Clinical formats are all over the place (HL7v2, CCDA, FHIR) and the data is garbage. Claim data is clean because you don’t get paid if it’s wrong.

With Epic and Cerner, they offer the full white glove experience plus a reputation for quality billing; plus, they have a larger internal network to pull from for interoperability.

Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

#75
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this mean? I've been working in this space for years. All the hospitals want web apps. Some want to deploy them internally.

If they want a web app, PHP is ok. Medical records are not a website, so its logic should not be in PHP. A frontend for medical data? Yes, a HIS? NO

You keep saying medical records are not a website. But if you make it that way then they are.

Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

#76

OpenEMR seems like it could have a market opportunity, in principle. The EMR market in the US is dominated by two big, unpopular systems (Cerner and Epic). A smaller, nimbler competitor could make inroads among health systems that don't like that duopoly. Does anyone have any stories about setting up / using OpenEMR?

No stories using it, but I know people in the medical field who loath epic more than doing their taxes or most work.

Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Multimodal LLMs will also replace much of medicine and nursing which is good. You should read up on the history of AI in medicine. 30-40 years ago they had rudimentary (by our current era understanding) systems that basically equalled and beat physicians in diagnosing and prescribing medicine to patients when given a list of symptoms (sources at the end). None of these ever had any uptake because physicians didn't…

> Ultimately credentialed professionals like medicine and law will never be replaced by LLMs because LLMs cannot be held responsible for the medical regimes they place patients under (or the legal advice they give). It’s not quite the same as what you are saying, but things are changing quickly. Software is diagnosing pathology in radiology now. Software made up at least 3/4 of the pixels in the MRI scans I acquire.…

Why would things be changing quickly now when old-school AI have been out-diagnosing doctors for years?

Again, like I said, doctors are ultimately responsible for the final call made. So no amount of AI will replace any doctors. It may remove some toil, but they cannot be replaced.

Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

#78
post #57
post #40

I was the main contributor and maintainer to OpenEMR about ~20 years ago and then decided it was irredeemable and started over with ClearHealth/HealthCloud. Shockingly some of my code code lives on (from PHP 3). I am reluctant to say don't use it but if you do please don't expose it to anything public, which sadly happens most of the time. There are some real problems that exist in that code base from a security and…

ClearHealth/HealthCloud is abandoned, right? What would you recommend today as an OpenSource EMR?

ClearHealth and it's affiliated companies were acquired in 2017. ClearHealth the EMR stopped open source releases in 2017/2018. You can kind of hair split what is and isn't an "EMR" but if you want a system most providers would call an EMR it is extremely difficult to have it be any sort of open source anymore. Basic fundamentals like procedure codes, diagnosis codes, eprescribing, billing, drug databases, interoperability, mandatory reporting and certifications all involve large fees, licensing and other ongoing costs. At ClearHealth our main business was healthcare management. We spent about ~2 million a year on those things, we released what was not encumbered otherwise under the GPL. The EMR is still used and maintained internally by some larger institutional users.

Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

#79
post #40

I was the main contributor and maintainer to OpenEMR about ~20 years ago and then decided it was irredeemable and started over with ClearHealth/HealthCloud. Shockingly some of my code code lives on (from PHP 3). I am reluctant to say don't use it but if you do please don't expose it to anything public, which sadly happens most of the time. There are some real problems that exist in that code base from a security and…

On the page, they talk about being ONC certified: [0] Does ONC certification test for that kind of thing? They briefly mention "security"... [0]: https://www.open-emr.org/blog/openemr-achieves-onc-certifica...

If you consult https://chpl.healthit.gov/#/listing/10938 you will see that it is a certification of a subset of the full criteria (toggle 'see all certification criteria'). OpenEMR foundation says they had to raise $125k to do the partial certification, that sounds right. That is a good thing but some items like eprescribing are not certified, which is an absolute deal breaker to most providers. I would guess it's because you have to license a drug database. At ClearHealth we built and maintained our own drug db as open source also, it was a large endeavour. We had to lobby federally for there to be a carve out in the HITech legislation to even allow for an open source drug database to exist rather than the original requirement of two dominant existing providers codified in law. You can stitch together some other third party offerings to meet those needs but hardly anyone wants to do that.

Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software

#80
post #51

I worked in EMR company and the amount of monthly legislative changes was insane. Insurance companies always changed their data formats every month. I think they did it because if hospital's monthly export contained some error they could hold their money for couple days more. So anyway when our country switched to euro, the deadline came and the insurance company still didn't publish format for the new month. They we…

When you work in a a patient facing role, you battle the EMR (or Radiology Information System in my case) and hate it’s ancient, bug ridden mess of inefficiency. Why is it just as crap as it was 20 years ago? But if you ever see the billing side you realise that billing is where the bulk of the action happens and that the horror is even worse over there.

Lack of data interface standards is the biggest thing holding healthcare technical efficiency back, from what I've seen.

And I understand why it's hard! But it should be possible to make progress around the edges, on more defined use cases and subsets... like pricing.

That said, the major system vendors have zero incentive to originate interoperability, so it'll have to come from HHS if anywhere.

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