There's a saying in hospital tech sales: if you've seen one hospital's stack, you've seen one stack. The sheer amount of bespoke deployments and lack of interoperability in these facilities would blow the average HN reader's mind. And through the inertia of these deployments and their (absolutely necessary) adherence to HIPAA and SoC, getting any kind of competitor in, much less one with the lack of support resources…
I would agree with this. The actual tech isn't all that difficult, you just need a very large and flexible database with a functional front-end, detailed process automation and business rules, hardened security, and high reliability. All very well-worn and established elements that can be found pretty readily even in the open source software space. It's the aforementioned integrations, as well as the overall implemen…
OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software
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Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software
#22OpenEMR seems like it could have a market opportunity, in principle. The EMR market in the US is dominated by two big, unpopular systems (Cerner and Epic). A smaller, nimbler competitor could make inroads among health systems that don't like that duopoly. Does anyone have any stories about setting up / using OpenEMR?
In the dental space, the market opportunity has been demonstrated by OpenDental, a GPL competitor in the dental space. Others include Epic and Dentrix.
Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
Thanks for sharing your insights. One wonders if the business model for supporting efforts like this could be to provide the support/services, while keeping the code base open source?
I think that would be a good idea and the only way it would work. Unless this is way, way, way more polished you won't see a Mayo Clinic or Cedars-Sinai using something like this. They tried that 20 years ago and it was scrapped for Epic. If it targeted smaller rural access hospitals or smaller practices and sold consulting and hosting services it might work if it way undercut the current bigger players... But this m…
The process of migrating from one solution to another is so involved and time-consuming that I wouldn't expect it to happen more than once in a decade, and only then if the current solution is somehow critically deficient, or their practice is changing in a way that demands expanded options.
The only potential advantage I can think of is the relatively higher frequency of new practices being opened, which creates a wider target audience of potential customers, and that's probably why there's more field-specific solutions, rather than general ePHI that supports multiple fields of practice.
Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software
#24OpenEMR seems like it could have a market opportunity, in principle. The EMR market in the US is dominated by two big, unpopular systems (Cerner and Epic). A smaller, nimbler competitor could make inroads among health systems that don't like that duopoly. Does anyone have any stories about setting up / using OpenEMR?
Firstly, Open Source is not a factor here. The number of customers who care about our code is zero. Not even rounding to zero, just zero. Paying someone to look at, understand, Make, test, change etc dwarfs what they pay us. They are in the "health" business not the software business.
Our business model -does- matter though. We often get evaluated "as a supplier". The obvious things like how long we've been around, staffing levels, track record etc. Also non-obvious things like profitability, income model, some even ask to see the books (we draw th line before that.)
It turns out they're not buying software. They're buying a relationship. They want to know we'll be around in 5 years, 10 years, 15 years. That's -much- more important than the cost.
(As an aside, having the primary message on your front page literally soliciting donations is a bad look. Funding via donations overall is not a good look.)
Lastly the software is not used by the guy who makes the purchasing decision. The buyer doesn't care about the UI or workflow (much). As long as the price is "ok" (and he has a large budget to spend) that doesn't matter either. He cares about the warm and fuzzies the salesman gives him. He cares about the success of the project overall. He cares about his job rolling out this big project. Decisions like this are career making, or career breaking.
Oh, and the desire to -change- systems is zero. Sure there's lots of whining, that's easy to ignore. Changing is high risk (and will bring in the same amount of whining).
Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software
#25An LLM that takes multimodal input (audio, video, images, observations etc etc) and outputs whatever is required (a podcast summary of clinic patients, a checklist relevant to a patient’s condition in preop) is the future.
Forcing doctors, nurses and allied health to manually document everything they do in annoying web forms is stupid and soul destroying.
Multimodal LLMs will also replace much of medicine and nursing which is good.
Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software
#26Doctor here, I hate EMRs, they are oppressive, in many ways they make things worse for patients. I think the future of EMR is no EMR. An LLM that takes multimodal input (audio, video, images, observations etc etc) and outputs whatever is required (a podcast summary of clinic patients, a checklist relevant to a patient’s condition in preop) is the future. Forcing doctors, nurses and allied health to manually document…
Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
As someone (biased) who works with one of those two, I have a hard time believing the complexity of installing an EMR can be handled by this type of project. The challenges are not the challenges of tech. They aren't sexy. It is just really boring and complex business logic and the strength of both those companies is the vast amount of support they provide during install and future maintenance. The problem is less ab…
It's the same old thing with any vertical market software. Do you modify your business processes to suit an existing piece of software or customize the software to suit your existing business processes? Every healthcare provider organization likes to believe that they're a special snowflake with unique requirements. That's almost never true, but it's tough to convince the decision makers and veto holders otherwise. I…
One restaurant has much the same needs and day-to-day procedures as another, even if they serve different types of food at a different price point to a different target market in a different part of the country. Healthcare is not nearly so uniform, and to the extent there are common elements to their processes, they are elements that have long since become standard features in every ePHI management system. But even then, the task of adapting those features to an individual doctor's workflow is nowhere near as straightforward as setting up a POS or inventory management system.
Then there is the unique nature of the data itself. It doesn't just store SKUs of mutable entities with well defined attributes that support pattern-matching, data verification, and formatting rules. It stores patients, each with unique histories, conditions, diagnoses, prognoses with instructions, contraindications, supporting documents, scheduling, billing options, and the documentation of each discrete visit or encounter. Every doctor will have their own approach to all of these aspects that should comply with applicable laws and standards, but who are otherwise empowered to construct their own policies and procedures, especially if they are focused on a specialty or niche.
TLDR; I expect the idiosyncrasies and demands in ePHI management are more diverse and uniquely challenging than one might think.
Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software
#28OpenEMR seems like it could have a market opportunity, in principle. The EMR market in the US is dominated by two big, unpopular systems (Cerner and Epic). A smaller, nimbler competitor could make inroads among health systems that don't like that duopoly. Does anyone have any stories about setting up / using OpenEMR?
Most of their value is in not getting the implementing team fired.
Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software
#29but no EMR is going to gain traction with documentation that has five bullet points for its backup discussion.
Even the linked "back up using our tools" is just "tar things up and run mysqldump".
There's no discussion of how to handle and maintain this on a system that may be available 24/7. It's possible to do these things, certainly, but no credence or weight is paid to the real world concerns of how often you should be backing up, state management, intelligent restoration. It's as much about the business continuity aspect as it is the technical.
Re: OpenEMR: Open-source medical record software
#30I know basking projects based on their choice of language is controversial, but PHP really is pushing it for me. And for medical data, too. PHP isn't boring technology - Java is boring technology - PHP is downright dangerous.
Is there other decent open source EMR coded with other languages to try out?