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Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

theguardian.com

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Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#131

Post by trescenzi »

menotyou wrote: post #70
tjpnz wrote: post #29

How do you know if you have it?

Quick test: Try to imagine the following and then answer the questions beneath. Imagine a table with a ball on it. A person is approaching the table, pushes the ball gently, and the balls starts to roll. Questions: (1) What color has the ball? (2) Is the person male or female? (3) What material is the table made of? (4) When you answered questions (1)-(3), did you know the answer beforehand, or did you think about wh…

I like this test because it’s not your answer, it’s your reaction to the question that matters. If you read this and think “uhh is that a trick question?” then you probably have aphantasia.

My initial reaction to reading this the first time was to go reread the story more closely to find the answer. But the answer isn’t in the story. For many people the answer is just a truth that exists when they hear the story and are asked the question. If it’s not you likely have aphantasia.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#132

Post by listenallyall »

SaidinWoT wrote: post #110
listenallyall wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have no idea what a very simple object or shape, like a Christian cross or a McDonald's logo, looks like without having one in your sight?

Similar questions throughout this thread make it clear that people assume recognition and/or knowledge of what something looks like is tightly coupled to internal visualization, but (writing as someone with aphantasia) they're not. I can draw both of the examples you gave, thinking about them (including thinking about how I would go about drawing them) just doesn't include an image in my head. Ed Catmull, former head…

Back before GPS, people used to give each other driving directions based on landmarks... go straight 2 miles, turn left at the red brick schoolhouse. Now, that sounds like the condition you describe - you know red, you know brick, you know what schoolhouses generally look like, but since you've never been to this specific place there is zero mental picture. When you finally get there, it's a surprise, you've found the thing that combines all the elements. But the next trip, there is a mental picture. It's probably extremely vague and lacking any detail, but it's still something, the next time it won't be a complete surprise.

Someone with the condition you describe (zero mental imagery) would, constantly, feel like they are seeing basic objects for the very first time, you wouldn't recognize anything at all, this would be a highly debilitating condition just like severe amnesia.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#133

Post by predakanga »

uclibc wrote: post #28
constantcrying wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I think of basically anything technical I get an image in my head. Any algorithm I write first exists in my head as a visualization of what I want to do. If I can't visualize what is going on I can't understand it and am in a state of confusion.

I might not have complete aphantasia, when trying to imagine an apple I struggle to imagine it beyond a circular form with a rod pertruding from an indent at the top. No color, no texture. As soon as I try to add more detail the previously imagined details dissapear and I have to circle back and reimagine them. Like having a very limited amount of draw calls every frame. But I don't feel like I am impacted in imagini…

> As soon as I try to add more detail the previously imagined details dissapear and I have to circle back and reimagine them. Like having a very limited amount of draw calls every frame.

This matches my experience - I think of it a bit like a really slow CRT, the phosphorescence fading before the image can be composed.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#134

Post by khazhoux »

gnz11 wrote: post #53
e38383 wrote: post #25

Every time I’m reading about Aphantasia, I’m confused again that people really see stuff in their head. I have basically the same as the person in the article. So, if you want to know anything, AMA. I’m also trying to respond to a few questions which are already asked.

I am also the same as the person in the article. Pure speculation on my part, but I am convinced that it’s the people who can fully visualize things that are the outliers and not the other way around.

> but I am convinced that it’s the people who can fully visualize things that are the outliers and not the other way around

Most people can't draw (at all) and I think that supports your point.

Example: https://twistedsifter.com/2016/04/artist-asks-people-to-draw...

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#135

Post by listenallyall »

trescenzi wrote: post #129
listenallyall wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Asked to think of the Mona Lisa, there's just... nothing?

There’s nothing visual. There’s word association: painting, woman, brown hair, Louvre, Da Vinci and so on. Also potentially emotional response too, I’ve never seen it so I don’t have anything like that. The best example of this, and why I’m absolutely certain it’s real and there’s not just a miscommunication, is the joke “don’t think of a pink elephant”. Until I learned of aphantasia I always thought it was super dum…

I think you believe that "normal" people have some magic hi-res virtual movie projector that superimposes crystal clear visions inside their heads. No, it's all just memories and concepts. Their response to thinking about the Mona Lisa is the same as yours. You know which way she faces, don't you?

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#136

Post by SaidinWoT »

listenallyall wrote: post #132
SaidinWoT wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar questions throughout this thread make it clear that people assume recognition and/or knowledge of what something looks like is tightly coupled to internal visualization, but (writing as someone with aphantasia) they're not. I can draw both of the examples you gave, thinking about them (including thinking about how I would go about drawing them) just doesn't include an image in my head. Ed Catmull, former head…

Back before GPS, people used to give each other driving directions based on landmarks... go straight 2 miles, turn left at the red brick schoolhouse. Now, that sounds like the condition you describe - you know red, you know brick, you know what schoolhouses generally look like, but since you've never been to this specific place there is zero mental picture. When you finally get there, it's a surprise, you've found th…

I can only tell you that I do not have mental imagery and am not constantly surprised by my surroundings. Object permanence has absolutely no dependency on visualization; it is completely unsurprising to me that the stop sign near my house looks the same each time I encounter it.

I totally get that you, having lived a life where mental imagery is such an integral part of your baseline experience, assume that many of the things you rely on it for require it. However, the human brain is impressively adaptable, and it turns out many, many aspects that people assume are linked (and may well be for them as individuals) are not globally so.

This thread is full of such realizations - people assuming ability at chess, art, tetris, spatial reasoning, abstract reasoning, architectural design, conceptualizing of DB schemas, etc. must be correlated with facets of thought like strength of mental imagery, presence of an inner monologue, ability to dream, etc. In all of those cases, people have chimed in with (anecdotal, to be sure) counterexamples. It turns out brains are generally capable of doing a lot of different things in a lot of different ways.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#138

Post by auggierose »

listenallyall wrote: post #132
SaidinWoT wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar questions throughout this thread make it clear that people assume recognition and/or knowledge of what something looks like is tightly coupled to internal visualization, but (writing as someone with aphantasia) they're not. I can draw both of the examples you gave, thinking about them (including thinking about how I would go about drawing them) just doesn't include an image in my head. Ed Catmull, former head…

Back before GPS, people used to give each other driving directions based on landmarks... go straight 2 miles, turn left at the red brick schoolhouse. Now, that sounds like the condition you describe - you know red, you know brick, you know what schoolhouses generally look like, but since you've never been to this specific place there is zero mental picture. When you finally get there, it's a surprise, you've found th…

The woman in the article describes that she has no problem identifying faces she has seen before, in fact, she is better at that than average. It is just that she doesn't see these faces as a picture in her head.

So clearly, there is some encoding process going on here, and the comparison is done on the basis of this encoding. This can be much more efficient than comparing the actual thing. Think of it has taking the hash of a picture, and performing comparisons using the hash, not the picture itself.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#139

Post by asah »

auggierose wrote: post #97

What frustrates me about things like that, there seem to be no proper tests for that. Shouldn't there be an easy test for Aphantasia, for example, that doesn't ask me things like "do you have a mind's eye" (what does that even mean?). Such a test should not ask the test subjects to self-diagnose themselves, but it should objectively test abilities and put them on a scale. Anything else really is not that helpful.

Describe in single words, only the good things that come into your mind about your mother.

Re: Aphantasia: I can not picture things in my mind

#140

Post by SaidinWoT »

listenallyall wrote: post #135
trescenzi wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s nothing visual. There’s word association: painting, woman, brown hair, Louvre, Da Vinci and so on. Also potentially emotional response too, I’ve never seen it so I don’t have anything like that. The best example of this, and why I’m absolutely certain it’s real and there’s not just a miscommunication, is the joke “don’t think of a pink elephant”. Until I learned of aphantasia I always thought it was super dum…

I think you believe that "normal" people have some magic hi-res virtual movie projector that superimposes crystal clear visions inside their heads. No, it's all just memories and concepts. Their response to thinking about the Mona Lisa is the same as yours. You know which way she faces, don't you?

Both my wife and one of my co-workers experience hi-res images superimposed over their actual vision when prompted (and occasionally involuntarily). This opposite end of the spectrum is hyperphantasia[0]. There are accounts in this thread of people having trouble reading books because they're too caught up in the visuals the story creates in their head (something that same co-worker has also mentioned happening).

I just responded to you elsewhere assuming that you're operating from a baseline experience of depending on visualization, but this comment has made me think you might actually also lack it, and that your assertion that aphantasia must be debilitating is from an assumption that the lack we're describing is something beyond your experience. Since it's all a matter of your internal experience, though, it's impossible for me to know.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperphantasia

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