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Can men live without war? (1956)

theatlantic.com

71–80 of 237 posts

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#71
post #12

Fascinating article...written not that long after it looked like men or anybody else could never live with war again. But, those fretting about the necessity of war need not have worried, as subsequent events proved. War between nuclear powers doesn't happen any more, but instead we've had endless proxy wars. Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Ukraine....

half of those are not proxy wars in any way shape or form.

Agree. Arm-chair generals above think otherwise.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#73
post #59
post #14

In an ideal future, firearms would be banned worldwide. A body like interpol would investigate the entire world, to surveil if anybody is trying to make firearms. People would make bows and spears, but it would be more difficult to conduct war. It would not make war and violence impossible, but it would certainly be a better world. EDIT: lots of pedants: obviously there would be an joint army answering to an internat…

Why would they make bows and spears, but not guns? That seems a fairly arbitrary technological line to draw.

A small child could kill hundreds of people with a single gun (depending on the type). Firearms (including bombs) are force multipliers far beyond any bow or spear.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#74
post #43
post #14

In an ideal future, firearms would be banned worldwide. A body like interpol would investigate the entire world, to surveil if anybody is trying to make firearms. People would make bows and spears, but it would be more difficult to conduct war. It would not make war and violence impossible, but it would certainly be a better world. EDIT: lots of pedants: obviously there would be an joint army answering to an internat…

If you aren't physically strong enough to defend yourself then you shouldn't be able to defend yourself?

Are firearms the only way for people to be defended?

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#75
post #44
post #23

The thing is without force your stuff gets taken. We haven't got a good way around this. Our current peace is heavily based on nuclear weapons and the implied threat of force. Don't like the status quo? Use force to try to change it. Do like the status quo? Use force to try to keep it that way. We don't have a stable equiliubrium where no force exists in the system. Many in this thread effectively say "You can do wha…

And people are slowly testing the limits of the nuke deterrent. Turns out everyone is really hesitant to use them especially when the aggressor has nukes too.

[deleted]

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#76
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and land get taken. It's always land. This is because land is scarce. You can keep things that aren't scarce without force. > Is there any convincing argument for getting out of this equilibrium? The total destruction of artificial scarcity?

Why would you think scarcity is artificial? Have you tried growing your own food lately? Do you have an army of robots who are doing it for you?

No. I go to the grocery store. Where an army of robots controlled by farmers has already done it for me. We're so good at this more than 1/3 of it goes to waste. We export so much food it literally disrupts world markets.

The question you want to ask is there ever a point where population's psychical space demands overcome the space required to feed those people? We are nowhere near this limit.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#77

No we cannot. A small percentage of humans are wired with a strong territorial mind and/or a greedy personality. It's in the gene. Some of them eventually become leaders.

Evolution suggests that genes with no strong survival benefit are eventually discarded.

Which suggests that an impulse to territoriality may have had a strong survival benefit during our evolution. It may still be correlated with creating more viable zygotes, it isn't obvious to me either way. Likely there's a sweet spot and both too much and too little reduces reproductive fitness.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#78
post #14

In an ideal future, firearms would be banned worldwide. A body like interpol would investigate the entire world, to surveil if anybody is trying to make firearms. People would make bows and spears, but it would be more difficult to conduct war. It would not make war and violence impossible, but it would certainly be a better world. EDIT: lots of pedants: obviously there would be an joint army answering to an internat…

i have a really small machine shop and some scrap steel. i could make a functional but probably unsafe gun, and with some practice make useful weapons. are you going to audit all the use of carbide cutting inserts in the world? make sure you understand where every last pound of steel goes?

the genie left that bottle more than a hundred years ago

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and land get taken. It's always land. This is because land is scarce. You can keep things that aren't scarce without force. > Is there any convincing argument for getting out of this equilibrium? The total destruction of artificial scarcity?

scarcity's been around since the dawn of time, even if it's sometimes intentionally worsened. do you see some way of truly eliminating it?

I said the end of _artificial_ scarcity, which much of our current world, and most of it's economic system is based on. As you've flagged, the fact that entropy exists means scarcity itself will be with us until the end of time.

Re: Can men live without war? (1956)

#80
post #14

In an ideal future, firearms would be banned worldwide. A body like interpol would investigate the entire world, to surveil if anybody is trying to make firearms. People would make bows and spears, but it would be more difficult to conduct war. It would not make war and violence impossible, but it would certainly be a better world. EDIT: lots of pedants: obviously there would be an joint army answering to an internat…

You’re not banning anything. You’re proposing a total monopoly on effective weaponry for this joint army.

And requiring global controls on 3D printers, CNC machines, any pressure bearing metal, and a range of chemistry and fertilizers.

All this after a door to door search for weapons and ammunition. What army exactly is going to be kicking down my door to confiscate these at gunpoint?

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