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Greece introduces the six day work week

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Re: Greece introduces the six day work week

#101
post #92

Fascinating thing about america 50 years ago was it seemed to work 24/7. In Finlandia it was illegal to work after 16:00. Then we got a nazi government who decided that small shops and kiosks can extend their hours upto 18:00. Worst thing was that there was no bank services outside 8:00-16:00. This was a blessing sort of, because Finland was the only country you could get bank services with a modem in 1970's. In 1983…

"Seemed" meaning through the media you watched while living in Finland? And you think that gives a good representative view of what the US was like in the 1970s? The news and shows you watched from the US were mostly made in large cities in California and New York. Parts of the US in the 1970s certainly had blue laws similar to what you mention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_laws_in_the_United_States mentions th…

Erh. What? I bicycled across America in 1984. Never seen in any other country that a food store can be open at midnight.

As regards 1979 Finland, this was far after beforementioned reforms. I remember I almost died on a 100km sunday trip in 1966. Not even kiosks were open in Porvoo. I drank water from a ditch and got instant diarré. Fainted couple of times, but some trucker eventually saved me.

Re: Greece introduces the six day work week

#102
post #2

6 days used to be normal generations ago, and still is in many parts of the world. Perhaps we're just in a golden age that's about to end.

Funny how not that long ago everyone used to predict that with the increases of productivity worldwide we'll keep reducing our workload to a point where we'll work just few hours a week and remain just as productive. And it seems that this has happened for a select few but everyone else is working more and more just to afford rent and basic necessities.

I got into AI specifically, because the automation and productivity yields would result in a 4hr work week for most if not all upon full fruition.

That dream-like bubble got popped when I was reminded by a savvy individual at a hackathon basically what you alluded to in your post. He was concerned that the elites would hoard the productivity of AI as they would get a controlling stake and it wouldn't benefit the common people as much. At first I was slightly incredulous and thought better of my fellow humans but then after seeing countless confirming examples in different settings, you and this hackathon guy have a worrisome point.

Capitalist forces, at least its current iteration and various other political-economic systems seem incapable or willfully defiant on providing rent and basic necessities. We have the wealth to shelter all and feed all for a fraction of human effort yet gaining access to reliable shelter and food is a continual struggle for those not in the top rungs of wealth earners. Capitalism is reaaaaally good at producing wealth, it's atrocious at spreading it around or serving the needs of the lower classes.

So many things point at increasing wealth and automation doesn't trickle down in meaningful ways to the lower classes.

Tesla's obviously going through some recent struggles, it's cutting 10-ish % of its workforce, yet the board repeatedly push through a multi-billion dollar package for technoking... Barf.

Besides that jarring example, I wish I could remember a lot of people making elicit abstract takes, on the failings of democracy and capitalism at serving the people. But one is: David Graeber. He talked about bullshit jobs and the promise of the 15 hour work week according the John Keynes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullshit_Jobs. I recommend youtube videos of him or reading his book.

I'm sure Noam Chomsky has some good points.

There's also Norm Finklesteins comment about what he calls a mausoleum in New York, a multi-million dollar building owned by internationals that's empty, all the while there's homeless outside. The contrast is striking. I've heard Greek has had similar problems in recent past of foreigners owning lots of the touristry spots pushing out the locals.

Then there are plenty of situations where there's some corporation thats the main wealth creator in an area. The majority stakeholders of course somehow finesse their way into more than their fair share of the wealth with some rationalizations that most people buy into without a second thought. But the math discrepency over the long term doesn't quite paint a copasetic picture.

Neighboring that, I like doing this thought experiment: It's clear there aren't any super humans on this planet. No "true" self-made billionaires IE billionaires that can make a billion without any other human involvement. Sure it's easy to become a billionaire when you financially hoodwink a group collaboration taking a lionshare of the stake by some financial contraption that most have no idea what's going on or have no negotiation power to be like NAH. Even so, there will always be the next useful idiot to agree to get taken advantage of to make Jeff Bezos rich. Maybe not an idiot, but starving and desperate to get food.

But back to the majority stakeholders. So the majority stakeholders get extremely lopsidedly compensated. Here is where trickle-down does work. Others have to find a way to "service" these majority stakeholders so that they can depart those wealth hoarders from the pennies pinched between their fingers and exchange that for food and shelter from price-gouging landlords in cities where building enough shelter at good pricing is such an insurmountable obstacle (My apologies I'm laying it on too thick). The trickle down effect in the economy takes the shape of how the wealth hoarders want to be served. If Jeff Bezos wants a stadium-sized yacht and a personal lower orbit shuttle service. Well the economy contorts, IE industrial capacity and labor effort, that contorts with its discretionary capacity to serve those needs and those who are willing to provide that can get their housing and sustanence needs taken care of. The stadium-sized yacht and spaceship side hustle wouldn't upset me so much if Amazon's work conditions weren't so notorious and also if everyone's shelter was already prioritized before reaching out for more absurd business schemes.

Regardless, our political-economic systems (Greece or elsewhere) definitely are failing some key evaluation metrics regardless of the spin proponents like to place on them.

Re: Greece introduces the six day work week

#103
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, it's not right? I will add an edit. I don't know about particular financial instruments, but i do know about the economy. Automation is constant in everything we do. For example: Protectionism of an economy is a way to fight automation, imposing tariffs on importing cars is exactly that [1]. Trump also plans to do it. Uber is banned in Greece, or at least not totally legal, and Airbnb the same. Interfacing with a…

Sounds in the video like some AAA CMBS had losses (not sure I'd call that a derivative, though). What I meant is why digress into it when it is not your area expertise. I am not sure I understand how zoning laws are stopping automation or how banning Uber is stopping automation.

George Gammon made another video 21h ago, in which he explains it in depth[1]. Then again, i don't understand that situation with the financial instruments, and indeed it may not have been wise of me to mention it.

In the broad economy however, any protectionist regulation, any anti-monopolist regulation, any protection from myself like narcotic laws, and a myriad of other things, creates bubbles.

In the economy, following Adam Smith's invisible hand, any decision not taken by the individual, but is imposed upon him, and this decision carries along with him a financial cost, creates bubbles. It is that simple.

When an individual wants to hire an Uber instead of a cab driver, there are certain factors influencing his decision, like cost, convenience, quality of service and more. When an individual wants to hire an Uber but he can't, then the inferior product or service will continue to be profitable, until the individual finds a way to get around the laws and regulations.

When that happens, then the people who offer the inferior product or service, lose their source of income in a moment's notice. That's when the bubble pops.

The bad situation here, is that a lot of people will lose their source of income all at once, instead of it being gradual. That's why creating bubbles is not advisable, and it creates explosive and dangerous situations.

In Uber's case in Greece, they are banned somewhat, because as a company they have revenue from Greece, but they don't pay taxes here.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0S3NLXBjJdQ

Re: Greece introduces the six day work week

#104
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the gains from increased productivity have been reaped by executives, not workers. You keep working the same hours to make your bosses more money, when you could be working less instead. This income gap has been widening since the 1970s[1,2]. [1]: https://www.cbpp.org/research/poverty-and-inequality/a-guide... [2]: https://www.epi.org/publication/ceo-compensation-2018/

Nope. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEPAINUSA672N

What do you mean, "nope"? Which part of the previous claims are you refuting?

Your chart shows "real median personal income" increased by ~50% from 1975 to now (27k to 40k).

One of the links you're nope-ing says "From 1978 to 2018, CEO compensation grew by 1,007.5% (940.3% under the options-realized measure), far outstripping S&P stock market growth (706.7%) and the wage growth of very high earners (339.2%)."

Both of these can be true, and median personal income increasing by just 50% when the income of the wealthy increased by far, far more sure sounds a lot like "the gains from increased productivity have been reaped by executives, not workers."

Re: Greece introduces the six day work week

#105
post #92

Fascinating thing about america 50 years ago was it seemed to work 24/7. In Finlandia it was illegal to work after 16:00. Then we got a nazi government who decided that small shops and kiosks can extend their hours upto 18:00. Worst thing was that there was no bank services outside 8:00-16:00. This was a blessing sort of, because Finland was the only country you could get bank services with a modem in 1970's. In 1983…

"Seemed" meaning through the media you watched while living in Finland? And you think that gives a good representative view of what the US was like in the 1970s? The news and shows you watched from the US were mostly made in large cities in California and New York. Parts of the US in the 1970s certainly had blue laws similar to what you mention. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_laws_in_the_United_States mentions th…

A long time ago my retort when someone would claim California's government was oppressive was; I can walk into the grocery store Sunday morning and buy hard liquor.

Re: Greece introduces the six day work week

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it? It’s not like the amount of work to do is fixed and once it’s done, everyone can relax for the rest of the year. There’s always work to do and progress just speeds up as work becomes more efficient.

Why not just stop once we've done the same work as in the past?

Is there nothing to improve in your life? Was there nothing to improve in the 50s? Would you like supersonic commercial flights for everyone and photorealistic computer games? Electric cars and larger houses? You can also do better and improve the life of everyone. That’s not even considering the improvements impoverished countries around the world have experienced in the recent decades, have a look at Africa.

Re: Greece introduces the six day work week

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just stop once we've done the same work as in the past?

Is there nothing to improve in your life? Was there nothing to improve in the 50s? Would you like supersonic commercial flights for everyone and photorealistic computer games? Electric cars and larger houses? You can also do better and improve the life of everyone. That’s not even considering the improvements impoverished countries around the world have experienced in the recent decades, have a look at Africa.

My desire to work less eclipses any desire for any of those things. I do not believe that lives are being improved. It only benefits the rich that don't have to work because there is no downside for them and they only gain more power through the system

Re: Greece introduces the six day work week

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why not just stop once we've done the same work as in the past?

Is there nothing to improve in your life? Was there nothing to improve in the 50s? Would you like supersonic commercial flights for everyone and photorealistic computer games? Electric cars and larger houses? You can also do better and improve the life of everyone. That’s not even considering the improvements impoverished countries around the world have experienced in the recent decades, have a look at Africa.

>Is there nothing to improve in your life?

Yes: less work primarily.

Re: Greece introduces the six day work week

#109
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those low-wage tourist-oriented businesses are making crazy high margins and paying workers peanuts. They are really not. I looked into this in 2019, when I was making a backup plan to get an investor visa in the EU. You can buy a hotel business in Greece for basically peanuts, but it is almost impossible to make _any_ profit without resorting to shady tactics. That's also why large chains can move in so easily. Th…

I'll trust your analysis, but how do you explain the extremely high prices nowadays? I went to a beach yesterday, and they wanted 75 EUR to rent an umbrella and two beds for a few hours. That's three days' wages for a Greek, how is this a low-margin business? Opex is minimal (basically bar staff), Capex is minimal (a bunch of beds and umbrellas), where's all the money going? Maybe it's only hotels that are low-margin…

> The money must be going somewhere.

> with the appropriate kickbacks to the local politicians

Re: Greece introduces the six day work week

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there nothing to improve in your life? Was there nothing to improve in the 50s? Would you like supersonic commercial flights for everyone and photorealistic computer games? Electric cars and larger houses? You can also do better and improve the life of everyone. That’s not even considering the improvements impoverished countries around the world have experienced in the recent decades, have a look at Africa.

My desire to work less eclipses any desire for any of those things. I do not believe that lives are being improved. It only benefits the rich that don't have to work because there is no downside for them and they only gain more power through the system

I would rather work full time now than part time in the 50s, I think. I haven’t lived in the 50s though so I can’t say for sure.
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