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Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

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Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#191
post #11

I don't like false dichotomies like this. Why can't kids learn to do both well? Standardized tests are akin to FizzBuzz for college entrance. If you can't get 500/800 in the Math SATs, you will not be able to keep up in STEM majors with others who scored 700+. Given the real constraint of limited resources, you have to implement barriers to entry. Standardized tests are not perfect but they serve well. Of course, mak…

But of course the problem is when you place so much emphasis on an artificial exam, you create a large incentive for administrators to interfere with classroom instruction in order to try and cater to the test. This is especially bad when you have poor tests.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#192
post #184

I'm amazed at the short-sightedness apparent in this article and in some of the comments here. Yes, the American public education system is broken and is to a large extent too focused on poorly-constructed standardized testing, but imagining that 1) the system used to be better for students, 2) the resources exist for universal project-based learning/assessment, and 3) project-based learning/assessment would fix many…

"Standardized tests try to package the assessment of a wide range of fundamental skills into a relatively contained, standardized format so that skills are evaluated relative to some clear standard" Ultimately, what is the point, though? Almost every day there are articles about hiring on Hacker News. Not once have I read the advice to look at the results of the applicant in the standardized school tests. If the test…

Standardized tests serve a number of roles in public education, very few of which relate to either enhancing or testing a student's ability to get a job.

The main applications relate to checking in on students' progress through the education system relative to their peers. It is also a way to compare the performance of particular groups of students (or schools) relative to others, which is very controversial, but obviously easier than trying to judge the quality of the robots they produce.

By far the greatest advantage of standardized tests over other assessment methods is that they scale beautifully. When you want to ask the question "how are we as a country/state/district doing compared to others", standardized tests provide a reasonably easy-to-interpret, reliable reference point. It's not just about what a test score says about an individual student (which ultimately is very little), but what the test scores indicate in aggregate.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#193
post #184

I'm amazed at the short-sightedness apparent in this article and in some of the comments here. Yes, the American public education system is broken and is to a large extent too focused on poorly-constructed standardized testing, but imagining that 1) the system used to be better for students, 2) the resources exist for universal project-based learning/assessment, and 3) project-based learning/assessment would fix many…

"Standardized tests try to package the assessment of a wide range of fundamental skills into a relatively contained, standardized format so that skills are evaluated relative to some clear standard" Ultimately, what is the point, though? Almost every day there are articles about hiring on Hacker News. Not once have I read the advice to look at the results of the applicant in the standardized school tests. If the test…

Standardized tests serve a number of roles in public education, very few of which relate to either enhancing or testing a student's ability to get a job.

The main applications relate to checking in on students' progress through the education system relative to their peers. It is also a way to compare the performance of particular groups of students (or schools) relative to others, which is very controversial, but obviously easier than trying to judge the quality of the robots they produce.

By far the greatest advantage of standardized tests over other assessment methods is that they scale beautifully. When you want to ask the question "how are we as a country/state/district doing compared to others", standardized tests provide a reasonably easy-to-interpret, reliable reference point. It's not just about what a test score says about an individual student (which ultimately is very little), but what the test scores indicate in aggregate.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The writer's complaint is daft. The purpose is to test if you can read a passage and comprehend it. Has nothing to do with microscopes. From my understanding of cognitive science, the question asked is deeply flawed if you want to test comprehension without testing knowledge of microscopes. One approach to answering questions like this is to build a little model in your head of what is being described. You then answe…

> One approach to answering questions like this is to build a little model This test question isn't testing that. > What I’m saying is that answering this question well requires experience with microscopes or similar devices. It sure doesn't. It requires you to be able to read and comprehend text. That's it. The subject could have been Martian fizzbozzles instead of microscopes. > Being able to answer the question wi…

> It sure isn't. Anyone who can read and comprehend text can answer it with no prior knowledge of the subject.

This reminds me of people who think the manpages are a sufficient resource to completely understand the unix cli environment.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#195
post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Standardized tests try to package the assessment of a wide range of fundamental skills into a relatively contained, standardized format so that skills are evaluated relative to some clear standard" Ultimately, what is the point, though? Almost every day there are articles about hiring on Hacker News. Not once have I read the advice to look at the results of the applicant in the standardized school tests. If the test…

Standardized tests serve a number of roles in public education, very few of which relate to either enhancing or testing a student's ability to get a job. The main applications relate to checking in on students' progress through the education system relative to their peers. It is also a way to compare the performance of particular groups of students (or schools) relative to others, which is very controversial, but obv…

None of these seem to benefit the actual students/pupils much, though? What would happen if kids could pick the schools they want to go to themselves?

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#196
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are unwittingly peddling an insidious idea that may be just as bad, if not worse, than standardized testing. A "highly qualified education professional" is a disinterested drone whose only accomplishments were meeting the arcane state requirements for a teaching certificate. If you're really lucky, they might have been adept at stringing together a bunch of useless "research" conclusions into incoherent p…

>The qualities that make for a good teacher--intelligence, patience, curiosity, and creativity--are diametrically opposed to the qualities of a "highly qualified education professional. You're reading too much into it. I meant a good, competent educator.

I understand what you meant, that's why I qualified my statement by saying your choice of words was unwitting. My point is that, precisely because it was not deliberate, your choice of words reflects a subconscious perspective that teaching is no different than other jobs, where formal qualifications and a professional attitude are reasonable substitutes for an in-depth assessment.

Of course, we could get into a discussion about whether that's a valid assumption for any profession, but that's neither here nor there.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#198

Well.. if 60% of pupils got the answer wrong, given the full explanation before the multiple choice answers, maybe it has more to do with reading ability than STEM disposition or method of questionning :/

Except that in real-life I wouldn't put the lens too close to the glass, because a) the microscope seems (by the description) to be able to crush the glass, and b) I wouldn't bet on myself remembering which way to turn the knob to raise the lens instead of lowering it. IMO this is a thinking vs. saying what they want you to say problem. It pops up often when a kid has more experience with subject matter than the test…

I can only speak from personnal experience: the first time I used a microscope I did break a glass by trying to zoom in first. I had no manual but I wouldn't have read it anyway (nowadays I do read instructions before using anything). When I read this particular article I "played" the game and answered correctly (hooray for me). I agree this kind of test has nothing to do with STEM because it is interchangeable and could be devised for any courses ; my point is that it's "just" a comprehensive reading test and if you fail it it means you fail at comprehensive reading which is one of the most basic skills one pupil should acquire. I agree it has nothing to do with validating specific STEM knowledge but nevertheless the explanations are correct and useful in the STEM field and understanding them is important. Now, if american science courses are only about those kind of tests it's a little bit concerning: Scoring A's in every courses just because you understand the questions versus scoring A because you understand the courses.

Not: I am not american so I don't know how education is organised in the US.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#199
post #27

Who exactly is going to teach children to build rockets and robots? As a country we have pretty much run all the vocational teachers out of the schools. The vocational teachers were good because most did contracting during the summer. Add to this the decline in schools teaching programming[1]. We need to figure a way to get qualified technical / vocational people back into the schools and realize that they need to pa…

[1] Brazil, Russia, India, China...

And yet the educational system of those countries is even more focused on rote learning / standardized testing than it is in the USA...

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#200
post #25

I have 5 implementable ideas how to bring out schools into the 21st century: 1) Let children solve real world problems. They learn skills that they can use in most every job. 2) Let the children decide which problem they want to tackle. Excellent skills to have: Coming up with ideas, convincing your fellow students to focus the rest of the year on that one problem and focusing on the solution for the rest of the scho…

Most of those ideas are nice, but not very practical. Some thoughts:

1) Real, actual, real world problems can't be solved in a class room. They are solved in 'the real world', i.e. business and government. Business and government won't let kids have a go at such things because it's too expensive, risky and messy. Companies continually complain about young employees' lack of (VET/STEM)skills, yet when it comes down to it they're really not prepared to run the risk that comes with having young kids (not) solving their actual problems. Now, schools could 'simulate' real problems, and do try to do that, but it's enormously expensive and difficult and not very practical. Also, in our services-based economy most problems are solved through repetitive procedures. This is why there's such a focus on 'transversal' skills these days. Learning how to do look up information, read texts etc are important skills to have. They're the foundation underpinning those transversal skills. The idea is to not let kids learn about just one problem, but about a basic skill set that can be applied to any problem. Combine this focus with the hesitancy of companies, and you can see why these dreaded standardized tests come enter the equation...

2) Many schools already do this or try to do this. The problem is that there are some essential skills kids need to learn, which cannot be removed from the curriculum. Teaching those skills takes up a lot of time. This is why there is little room for such 'free play' in a class room. Creativity is wonderful and essential, but very hard to consistently implement in schools. Especially with the complaints that todays students lack the basics: math&english.

3) Schools already track progress. It's the one thing schools are actually pretty good at, and it has led to a complete focus on metrics that has had the unfortunate side effect of making the test results more important than actual learning outcomes and skills. This is also why I'm pretty cynical about web-based learning: a metrics based system breeds metrics based testing, schooling and studying. IT is a nice luxury, but not (yet?) the solution to our problems. 4) I like this idea. Especially involving the parents. 5) This is really the same idea as option 2. The same issues apply there. I agree that kids should do projects and have so leeway in their choices, but you underestimate the real world problems teachers encounter in a class room. Most students are in fact NOT responsible, smart or capable enough to choose a (relevant, teachable, educational) project and tackle it. Add social problems, broken families, shitty reading comprehension and problem kids to the equation and you can see why this doesn't work for most students. It's a great idea for excellent students though - add it to the curriculum for the better students who do well on tests anyway and it would be fantastic. In fact, don't do it on Fridays. Let them do projects based on what the rest of the class is doing. When everybody else is learning about the planets and the moon, give those 'smart' kids an advanced project about planetary movements and let them present the results to the class.

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