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Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

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Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#31

Post by 082349872349872 »

toasterlovin wrote: post #12
dangrossman wrote: post #3

Contrast that with Helen Keller's description of her mental state before language: https://scentofdawn.blogspot.com/2011/07/before-soul-dawn-he...

Something to keep in mind is that according to Wikipedia, Helen Keller met Anne Sullivan, her caretaker and the person who introduced her to language, at around 7, which is probably around the age many people with normal language acquisition would start to have the kinds of changes in cognition that Keller attributes to learning language.

See also Spacetime for Springers

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#32

Post by 082349872349872 »

tetrisgm wrote: post #15

We don't have better tooling to transfer information between humans though. We have language, and we have art. It seems that art transcends humans in some ways: happy / sad music seems to affect animals, and we've seen animals contemplating things. Without language, we can't really create a mapping to what that means though. We simply don't have a better way to compress multiple concepts into few bits of information…

I often work with animals who show signs of thought: presented with a novel situation, they pause, reflect, and select the prudent option.

I sometimes work with people who show no signs of thought: external stimuli are perceived, converted into a stream of language, and conveyed, with no apparent effort at audience-based compression (selection of an appropriate message from a wide variety of potential messages), or even compression in general (selection of a short message...).

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#34

Post by abetusk »

In contrast to Noam Chomsky who was pushing the idea that language was developed primarily for thought [0].

I don't know how much weight should be given to this paper but, if true, directly contradicts Chomsky. Here is one quote from Chomsky:

""" ... One general assumption about language, almost a dogma in philosophy ... [and] linguistics ... is that language is primarily a means of communication ... probably that's totally false. It seems language ... is designed as a mode of creating and interpreting thought. """

In my opinion, I find Chomsky to get mired in certain quagmires around intelligence and computation, especially in regards to AI, where he's somehow managed to rationalize an absurd stance. I remember watching a video with Chomsky claiming that language's primary purpose was not communication and thinking it was potentially plausible but highly unlikely. I'd be curious to see if people think this paper, and maybe any other research, refute this position.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEmpRtj34xg

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#35

Post by nopinsight »

082349872349872 wrote: post #30
Swizec wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * 关系 (Guanxi) (Mandarin): Your network of connections that help you get stuff done in life and business. I do think in American English at least there is a phrase for this: Your Network. You even used it to explain the word :) Usually the first association to “your/the network” is social. You have to specify if you mean the technical version with computers.

> * น้ำใจ (Nam-jai) (Thai): Literally "water from the heart". Being very nice and helpful without expecting anything back. "Charity"

There are many key differences between the two concepts. 'charity' would be a bad translation of 'น้ำใจ'. GPT-4o explains it well:

https://chatgpt.com/share/e/987705c8-fcb7-4af3-a8bd-9d7dc228...

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#36

Post by nopinsight »

Swizec wrote: post #24
nopinsight wrote: post #7

There are many concepts in our thought stream without a 'word' or even a simple 'phrase' to label them. A word or a common phrase is coined when a concept is sufficiently common and important enough such that someone comes up with a label to communicate the idea succinctly and the label catches on. We, humanity, have words or common phrases to label the vast majority of significant concepts. However, not every concep…

> * 关系 (Guanxi) (Mandarin): Your network of connections that help you get stuff done in life and business. I do think in American English at least there is a phrase for this: Your Network. You even used it to explain the word :) Usually the first association to “your/the network” is social. You have to specify if you mean the technical version with computers.

Major differences between them. The concepts are rooted in very different cultures.

In-depth explanation by Orlando Yang: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/chinese-guanxi-vs-western-soc...

Easier-to-read one by GPT-4o: https://chatgpt.com/share/e/b2a76479-2950-4aad-ad8e-97e775be...

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#37

Post by 082349872349872 »

nopinsight wrote: post #35
082349872349872 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * น้ำใจ (Nam-jai) (Thai): Literally "water from the heart". Being very nice and helpful without expecting anything back. "Charity"

There are many key differences between the two concepts. 'charity' would be a bad translation of 'น้ำใจ'. GPT-4o explains it well: https://chatgpt.com/share/e/987705c8-fcb7-4af3-a8bd-9d7dc228...

That "share" link doesn't.

Perhaps I should specify: "charity", as used in "faith, hope, and..."

(although I generally prefer "charity" as in the computer language)

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#39

Post by gyomu »

nopinsight wrote: post #7

There are many concepts in our thought stream without a 'word' or even a simple 'phrase' to label them. A word or a common phrase is coined when a concept is sufficiently common and important enough such that someone comes up with a label to communicate the idea succinctly and the label catches on. We, humanity, have words or common phrases to label the vast majority of significant concepts. However, not every concep…

> * 積ん読 (Tsundoku) (Japanese): Buying books and never reading them, just letting them pile up.

i don't speak Thai or Mandarin, so I can't speak to the other 2, but this one is a pun (combining tsundeoku, pile up, and dokusho, book reading) that survived in the language due to its catchiness.

A bit like "hangry" (hungry + angry) in English.

I have a hard time interpreting the existence of those words as an indication that Japanese culture really values not reading the books you buy, or English speaking culture is irritated due to hunger more so than other cultures.

They're just meme-like constructs that caught on due to arbitrary phonetic properties of the language.

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