Live data from Hacker News

Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

gwern.net

11–20 of 404 posts

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#11
post #2

Language is for both. Every concept is tied to a label that is a word. We identify pieces of reality by their common attributes while omitting their specific measurements, and attach these identifications to a label which is a word. It is a unique ability that we have as humans, which no other animal shares. It is essential for rational thought. Communication may have been an evolutionary forcing function on our abil…

Take a detailed look at an abstract painting and you might form thousands of unlabeled concepts per second; examine life in a microscope; listen to complex instrumental music; taste spicy/tingly XiAn noodles; smell a forest in the fall after the rain: there is a ton of thought involved in common human function without the need or ability of using language. A serialized version of language is too slow to capture parallel complex ideas that can race through your brain in an emergency and save your life. Learning how to use words is useful but there are not enough combinations of words in the world for the richness of thought you can experience in a single morning, in a single breath. We have way too many smell receptors in our genome and way too few words formed for the smell combinations we experience daily. We can recollect experiences, or we can visualize generate experiences in our mind; I dont see a reason we would label every internal or external experience and we certainly dont have to forget or not imagine all the parts we havent labeled yet.

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#12

Contrast that with Helen Keller's description of her mental state before language: https://scentofdawn.blogspot.com/2011/07/before-soul-dawn-he...

Something to keep in mind is that according to Wikipedia, Helen Keller met Anne Sullivan, her caretaker and the person who introduced her to language, at around 7, which is probably around the age many people with normal language acquisition would start to have the kinds of changes in cognition that Keller attributes to learning language.

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#13
I think this is largely correct, but may miss some higher-order concepts related to language and the structure of one’s complex thoughts.

To me they appear to go hand-in-hand, similar to the way a backend’s logic may inadvertently be structured to support an API. Another metaphor may be Conway’s Law, where the way one is forced to communicate, may in turn shape the way they structure their (brain) processes.

Anecdotally, I’ve noticed that speakers of different languages seem to “think” more similarly than not. For instance, native speakers of non-English Germanic languages appear to think more similarly compared to those native speakers of Romance languages, and vice-versa.

Obviously I’m using English as a middle-man, and am likely projecting on what their internal thoughts actually are, but the pathways they take to express an idea or a solution is oftentimes more similar than not within the same base language background.

Now is language necessary for complex thought? Absolutely not. We’ve seen evidence from many different life forms that show complex problem-solving, pattern matching, and novel tool use that all seem to happen without having a seemingly complex language background (i.e. Zipf’s Law).

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#14
Language is the medium through which raw perspective refined itself.

Language birthed social games and the sense of self.

Yes, language evolved for communication.

But without communication, thought would still be stuck in the land of instinct, never forged by the tribal dances of love, art, deceit, debate and organization.

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#15
We don't have better tooling to transfer information between humans though. We have language, and we have art. It seems that art transcends humans in some ways: happy / sad music seems to affect animals, and we've seen animals contemplating things. Without language, we can't really create a mapping to what that means though. We simply don't have a better way to compress multiple concepts into few bits of information we can pass around.

Interestingly, removing language as a tool for communication is a cool thought experiment. I imagine one could use maths, or music, as a way of expressing thoughts and ideas. Would that process of condensing information not be language-making though?

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#16
How do you define “thinking”?

To me thinking is primary tool of communication between I and “me” and it’s entirely based on sound and language.

Can you think without using language?

When you have song playing in your head, how is that different from your thoughts?

Isn’t talking out loud just act of thinking, the output being connected to mouth?

Have you ever tried to repeat mantra in your thought, slow down until coming to full stop? What remains when thinking stops?

Have you noticed that thinking is like breathing, in a way that it’s happening automatically and you can also take over?

Have you noticed that thinking consciously is linked with breath and being aware of space?

Fascinating topic!

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#17
The crux of their argument is that the language faculty and other faculties (math/logic/abstract, theory of mind/social reasoning, spatial/temporal imagination, and other cognitive abilities) all evolved in parallel, so the most plausible explanation is that language is mostly independent of all those other faculties which are activated in distinct neural network areas of the human brain, based on brain scan studies in the last 20 years.

I imagine a counterargument (or complication) to that is that such parallel evolution would require the neural networks to independently evolve certain breakthroughs multiple times before reaching the Homo sapiens stage. For example, language is recursive and yet human mathematical reasoning is recursive, but these use two different brain areas (according to the paper). So in their figure of two different brain regions for language processing versus math/code thinking, both regions had to somehow evolve the "wetware" for recursive computation. How did natural evolution manage that in general?

Re: Language is primarily a tool for communication rather than thought [pdf]

#18
Language is a major component of thought. Every programmer knows the unreasonable effectiveness of rubber duck debugging whereby one can solve logical problems more effectively by talking aloud.

If language were merely a tool for communicating thoughts rather than an integral part of thinking, then talking aloud wouldn’t help. But since raising the volume of one’s internal monologue does improve reasoning, this shows that the internal monologue is part of the thinking process - not a passive reflection of thought that is happening “elsewhere”.

Yes, of course you can engage in complex thought without language. There is verbal and non-verbal reasoning. A chess player thinks spatially in terms of how the knight moves, not just verbally, though verbal reasoning does help in chess somewhat.

Post reply on HN