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Ladybird browser spreads its wings

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Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#191

Post by IggleSniggle »

hollowturtle wrote: post #183
hypeatei wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is so wildly wrong it hurts. As soon as that one important website (to your user) breaks, they will switch browsers. Just deciding that you don't want to implement >50% of web specs "for simplicity" and expecting that to be a winning strategy is very HN.

To me it’s not wrong at all, why won’t a simpler browser with a “modern mode” rendering succeds? There is no need for that browser to support the space jam website, who really cares? Imo thinking that people need quirks mode because they need to visit old website it’s very HN.

It's not that at all. Imagine some popular website is relying on some weird quirk but it works out in modern browsers. They don't even know they are broken, or in what way, and first discovering the issue and then investing in fixing the issue for <1% of readers is a very difficult cost to justify.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#192

Post by gus_massa »

starbugs wrote: post #173
jsheard wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with targeting a subset is there's a ratchet effect with web APIs, once support reaches critical mass in the major browsers sites will start unconditionally relying on those features and there's no going back from there, any new browser has to also support those features or be considered broken. I suppose anything that's gated behind a permission prompt in Chrome/Firefox/Safari could be culled without too…

> The problem with targeting a subset is there's a ratchet effect with web APIs What about starting a new web then only for the supported subset? Based on my current browsing experience, this may be a plus in the long run.

The problem is convining anyone to write a website in this. You will have like 3 sites that use only the subset.

The closest example is AMP, but you must be Google to force people to use it.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#193

Post by 8organicbits »

the_other wrote: post #153
manuelmoreale wrote: post #10

I’m irrationally excited for this project. The idea of a community built browser is incredibly appealing considering the current landscape where all browsers are either Chrome, Chrome in a trench coat, or Firefox

Safari is 18% of global web traffic, 7x that of Firefox. (from a hasty scan of caniuse.com)

I challenge those numbers. Global stats aren't important, just the stats for your target audience. My sites see 13% Firefox, 35% Safari. But keep in mind, FF users sometimes spoof the Chrome user agent because some sites break otherwise. Further, I suspect FF users have tracking blockers at a higher rate, so they don't show up.

https://indieweb.social/@robalex/112472853515037460

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#194

Post by paulryanrogers »

erremerre wrote: post #133

Although I dont like quite a few Firefox decisions. Like the floating tabs which no easy way to revert. I still think Firefox as a browser is fairly decent. And I also think that ladybird is going to have all the problems that Opera Presto had (and now Firefox has) which is going to be ignored by any small developers, and targeted to generate errors by the big companies (google/microsoft...) I definitely would have p…

If enough people use different browsers then we'll get effective and slower standards once again. I think the only way to get people on other browsers is to legally require ballots on first use of an OS/device with random order. It worked in the EU, it can work in the US too.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#195

Post by Wowfunhappy »

voytec wrote: post #187
gjm11 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That might be because Jamie Zawinski's website, which that link links to, does something ... special ... when it sees HN in the "Referer" field, so anyone actually following that link from here would (unless they take special measures) get IIRC a famous obscene image rather than the actual post you were hoping to link to. (JWZ is not a fan of Hacker News and its community.)

Ok, didn't knew that. Still a dick move on HN's part. Shadowing should be restricted to abusers.

Wouldn't the submission get user flagged anyway? Because when people clicked it, they'd see something NSFW and devoid of interesting content.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#196

Post by darby_nine »

peremptor wrote: post #178
starbugs wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with targeting a subset is there's a ratchet effect with web APIs What about starting a new web then only for the supported subset? Based on my current browsing experience, this may be a plus in the long run.

There are now 3 competing standards.

You really just need two to see the positive effects, but three would be fantastic.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#197

Post by ArtixFox »

voidwtf wrote: post #35

I don't want to discourage the developers working on this project, but I'm curious why we're still writing applications that will almost certainly execute or process hostile content in languages that don't maintain strict memory safe contract? Have we not learned our lesson yet, or am I misunderstanding the situation? I believe it was a Microsoft study that linked unsafe memory access to ~70% of exploit chains.

Because writing a browser in ATS or Frama-C is not possible. Or writing it in Coq and exporting it to ocaml and friends. Ada can be used but its mediocre at best and sucks at places where frama-C shines. A lot of pointer stuff that is easier to prove in ATS or frama-C is impossible in Ada [and by extension of that, rust] TLA+ can be used in mix with C++ just like how 90% of safety critical software is written but the development speed is very slow for it. That leaves Rust, which is a...mediocre language if you really care about safety. It has no idea of linear types that ATS has and cannot carry embedded proofs like Frama-C. Plus the culture regarding safety critical software in C/C++ is humongous and tbh fairly amazing. I cannot remember exactly but there are many projects targeting C++ for safety purposes, even the people behind frama-C are creating something called as frama-Clang to allow writing safety critical code in C++ backed by proofs.

Are there any other languages that im missing? If ATS has a prettier syntax, it'd be my candidate for writing a web browser in.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#198

Post by TacticalCoder »

pjmlp wrote: post #92
voidwtf wrote: post #35

I don't want to discourage the developers working on this project, but I'm curious why we're still writing applications that will almost certainly execute or process hostile content in languages that don't maintain strict memory safe contract? Have we not learned our lesson yet, or am I misunderstanding the situation? I believe it was a Microsoft study that linked unsafe memory access to ~70% of exploit chains.

Note that despite that study, Windows and XBox teams are quite found of their C and C++, and even their own .NET has more success on the Azure side, than replacing all those COM/WinRT C++ workloads, and extension points. It is Azure that is more keen in adopting memory safe languages, and has the mandate that new systems code should be done using them.

> Note that despite that study, Windows and XBox teams are quite found of their C and C++...

And we all know how secure the average user's Windows computer is.

And Windows' security is so good that it's Windows who's powering tens of billions of servers, smartphones, IoT, appliances, routers etc. throughout the world? Oh, wait, no... These are all running Linux.

And the uptime. Let's not forget the uptime with patch tuesday.

Windows does not strike me as the ecosystem we should strive to immitate.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#199

Post by starbugs »

gus_massa wrote: post #192
starbugs wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with targeting a subset is there's a ratchet effect with web APIs What about starting a new web then only for the supported subset? Based on my current browsing experience, this may be a plus in the long run.

The problem is convining anyone to write a website in this. You will have like 3 sites that use only the subset. The closest example is AMP, but you must be Google to force people to use it.

> The problem is convining anyone to write a website in this

Could choose a subset that lets certain sites that do not get on everybody's nerves still run fine.

For the remainder, people who need it can run an extension that runs a Chromium converting what's possible to the target subset.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#200

Post by lawn »

infotainment wrote: post #190
lawn wrote: post #149

A related question: What's the state with Servo? Do I understand it correctly that Servo is the core of a browser but not the browser itself? How much work would it be to create a browser on top of Servo? And is there such a project?

They actually have an official blog with status updates! https://servo.org/blog/ They do have an official “browser”, ServoShell, which is basically a minimalistic testbed. IIRC adding tabs to it is on their roadmap.

Oh, excellent. Thank you!
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