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Ladybird browser spreads its wings

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Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#141

Post by voidwtf »

surgical_fire wrote: post #83
voidwtf wrote: post #35

I don't want to discourage the developers working on this project, but I'm curious why we're still writing applications that will almost certainly execute or process hostile content in languages that don't maintain strict memory safe contract? Have we not learned our lesson yet, or am I misunderstanding the situation? I believe it was a Microsoft study that linked unsafe memory access to ~70% of exploit chains.

> but I'm curious why we're still writing applications > Have we not learned our lesson yet, "We"? Do you speak in the name of the developer? What an odd choice of pronoum. Either way, if you are adamant about writing a new browser in your "memory-safe language" of choice, be the change you want made. Go ahead and write a new browser from scratch. Show the world how it should be done.

I meant we as in the collective, and I explicitly referenced the collective of those writing applications that process and/or execute user generated content. So no, I don’t think it appropriate to focus my question on the author or this project. I am wondering if C++ is a better choice for reasons I don’t understand when it comes to HTML/JS/CSS, despite potential security implications as the complexity grows.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#142

Post by voidwtf »

gkbrk wrote: post #67
voidwtf wrote: post #35

I don't want to discourage the developers working on this project, but I'm curious why we're still writing applications that will almost certainly execute or process hostile content in languages that don't maintain strict memory safe contract? Have we not learned our lesson yet, or am I misunderstanding the situation? I believe it was a Microsoft study that linked unsafe memory access to ~70% of exploit chains.

> why we're still writing applications > Have we not learned our lesson yet Why are you speaking like this project is asking you to write code in C++? You are free to exclusively write Rust. Other people writing C++ has 0 impact on what you're writing or what lessons you've learned.

If the eventual goal is to place the application in the hand of users, I think the question has merit.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#143

Post by bongobingo1 »

worksonmine wrote: post #75
lukan wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Install a new version of firefox, have a look in settings under "data" (or whatever they call it in english). There you will see "studies" as activated, which is cryptic talk for ad tracking. And more recently, literal tracking for a advertisement company. And as a bonus, those were added and activated as features via update, without telling. At least for me. (and paid ads you have on the home screen)

Studies are not ad tracking. It's worse and more like a backdoor for A/B testing of browser features. A few years back an update broke the Metamask extension and it was fixed by pushing via studies. At that point users weren't very aware the feature even existed and it caused some backlash since users realized there was a backdoor to push code into their browsers. The backlash resulted in studies being opt-in, and I…

Am I being a total chud? These don't really seem egregious? I already accept (and expect) that Firefox receives background updates in the background.

https://i.imgur.com/S7d4ZXg.png

https://i.imgur.com/n2euIrQ.png

https://i.imgur.com/BUjukOy.png

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#144

Post by tambourine_man »

manuelmoreale wrote: post #10

I’m irrationally excited for this project. The idea of a community built browser is incredibly appealing considering the current landscape where all browsers are either Chrome, Chrome in a trench coat, or Firefox

Not irrational at all. It’s the first new engine in decades, started by a single person in the open with no multibillion dollar company behind. We have every right to be exited.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#145

Post by antihero »

PrayagS wrote: post #77
lukan wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not every open source software has spyware and ads activated by default, while marketing itself as privacy friendly. Yes, can all be deactivated, I also use FF, but I do not trust Mozilla anymore.

Ikr. They're up to some questionable decisions since long. - Acquire companies like Pocket, Anonym in multi-million dollar deals and also the millions in bonuses that the CEO likes to enjoy. - At the same time, no significant expenditure towards developing its core software. Firefox is still ridden with bugs. They even went as far as firing the people that used to work on Servo, Rust, WASM, etc. I think it's clear to…

Also they stopped developing Servo :(

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#147

Post by m000 »

znpy wrote: post #85
jraph wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll take an alternative browser engine, even if it's written in C++. > I'm curious Is it really curiosity though? Because the answer is straightforward, the project started as a hobby, the developer picked whatever language they were proficient in. Andreas is open with the fact that he started Serenity OS and LadyBird as a rehab project. Put too much barrier in this setting (like learning a new language and all the…

>> I'm curious > Is it really curiosity though? I'm kind of annoyed at this whole train of comments ("I'm curious..."). In so many occasion I see something cool and the main comment track is "why hasn't this been writte in rust?" (or some other allegedly safe/better programming language). It's like seeing a beautiful painting being painted and arguing about the kind of paintbrush the painter has used. It's so sad.

> It's like seeing a beautiful painting being painted and arguing about the kind of paintbrush the painter has used.

No it is not. You don't use your browser for its artistic value (which is in the eye of the beholder). You also don't make an announcement for a painting.

This is more like using a non-inox screw in a high-humidity environment. Yes, it will hold on for a while. But it is objectively a bad choice. Non-inox may had been the only choice 300 years back, but this is 2024.

And writing a browser from scratch is a huge undertaking. When you invest resources in such a project, you probably want it to be more weatherproof than its C/C++-based predecessors. So it is quite reasonable IMHO to ask why C++ was chosen for this project.

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#148

Post by segfaltnh »

kouteiheika wrote: post #139
blowski wrote: post #6

I hear so much about Ladybird on HN, that I’m equally excited and cynical. What is the value proposition? Is it to be another general purpose browser, so there’s more competition with Chrome / WebKit? Or to be a niche browser, that could be an alternative to Electron? How close is it to achieving that?

It's a fun project, but there's no practical value proposition besides showing that it can be done. People are cheering on it because they love the author and want a new web browser written from scratch, but practically speaking it is a web browser that is 1) written in a memory unsafe language, 2) doesn't really have any sandboxing, and 3) is highly incomplete.

I think I just read in another comment that it uses per tab process isolation. Unless that's not what you mean by sandboxing?

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#149

Post by lawn »

A related question:

What's the state with Servo?

Do I understand it correctly that Servo is the core of a browser but not the browser itself? How much work would it be to create a browser on top of Servo? And is there such a project?

Re: Ladybird browser spreads its wings

#150

Post by PrayagS »

antihero wrote: post #145
PrayagS wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ikr. They're up to some questionable decisions since long. - Acquire companies like Pocket, Anonym in multi-million dollar deals and also the millions in bonuses that the CEO likes to enjoy. - At the same time, no significant expenditure towards developing its core software. Firefox is still ridden with bugs. They even went as far as firing the people that used to work on Servo, Rust, WASM, etc. I think it's clear to…

Also they stopped developing Servo :(

As in Mozilla stopped developing officially? Because I have seen active development on GitHub and monthly updates on their blog.
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