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NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode

science.nasa.gov

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Re: NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode

#111

Post by svachalek »

moffkalast wrote: post #45
BurningFrog wrote: post #38

I just think it's sad that they're doing fixes on a 34 year old telescope instead of sending up a new improved model every 10 years.

Well the JWST is in fact a thing. Why not keep getting science from the old ones while they're still working? NASA really needs to just fill their telescopes with gyros upon gyros, like just plaster the things with gyros and reaction wheels for 50x redundancy since that's always the mission critical thing that fails first. Or maybe a xenon powered ion reaction control system or something that would last longer then h…

JWST is an infrared telescope though, which doesn't really replace the Hubble. It is suited for the interesting science of our times though. An upgraded optical space telescope would probably be less groundbreaking but still very valuable to science.

Re: NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode

#113

Post by dahart »

BurningFrog wrote: post #106
tonetegeatinst wrote: post #7

NASA has such a tiny budget in comparison to other stuff....so they really have to stretch that money as far as they can, and especially considering spacecraft....its a very unforgiving production environment. Am I making a joke about deploying in production? Yes, yes I am. But I also know NASA really does the best they can and I am amazed at the insane work and effort that they do to make sure spacecraft they send a…

The NASA budget is $25B, or about $75 per American.

That’s an average for the year 2024, but as income taxpayers we only pay around half of that, or around $36.40 per American (using the $24.9B 2024 budget and 342M for the 2024 population), or maybe about one week’s morning Starbucks habit for some of us. :P The rest is paid by businesses and other sources. Of course, compared to the amount the military costs & spends, NASA’s really small.

Re: NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode

#114

Post by jccooper »

wongarsu wrote: post #53
yellow_lead wrote: post #18

Are the two other gyros broken?

Breaking gyros are a recurring issue for Hubble. Hubble has 6 (3 spares, 3 for full operation). They replaced them 3 times with space shuttle missions because they kept breaking. Now Hubble is down to 2 functioning gyros again and we no longer have a space craft with the capability to service satellites. They decided to shut one of the gyros off so they still have a slightly used spare once this one breaks.

Dragon has capability for a Hubble servicing mission. It would need more development than a Shuttle visit, but it's not a huge hurdle since the last visit installed a soft-capture mechanism. (It'd probably cost less than an equivalent Shuttle mission, just due to Shuttle's high launch costs.) SpaceX even prepared a proposal in a Space Act Agreement but NASA declined it recently. Sierra Nevada also has looked at doing it with Dream Chaser.

Sure, Hubble's way past its design lifetime, and it can probably limp along for another decade as is, and maybe something besides gyros will fail soon. But also there's no equivalent capability successor that's more than a study, and even if they manage to build HWO or something like it, it won't be operation for at least 20 years. A Hubble servicing mission would be a relatively cheap way to get a decade or two more time on a high-capability instrument.

Re: NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode

#115

Post by dotnet00 »

fallingknife wrote: post #110
dotnet00 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's worth adding that the proposal was mainly for reboosting the telescope, which can still be done later if needed. Trying to EVA and work on Hubble would be very risky right now with Dragon since you have to vent the entire capsule first, and this creates all sorts of optics contamination risks. They're also balancing this against upcoming technologies, possible cost reductions and the much improved capabilities o…

Couldn't they vent the capsule well before docking with Hubble? I assume the contamination comes from venting the capsule nearby the telescope.

They could, but it might be considered risky or maybe outright not possible with the current design, since the EVA hoses would be different from the ones normally used within the capsule.

It isn't that the problems can't be solved, just that NASA doesn't think it's worth working on just yet. Tbh I wouldn't be surprised if they're hoping to get government funding so that they can be the controlling party (vs a private mission, where, ultimately, they have to compromise with the specific things Isaacman would be willing to fund and within the timeline within which he's willing to keep funding).

Re: NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode

#116

Post by margalabargala »

dingnuts wrote: post #82
el_toast wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same story with shuttle and that's why it looks the way it is and was as expensive as it was. It would have been a completely different vehicle if Congress weren't meddling.

Congress is the owner. Want a different management ideology? Get different management. NASA is wasteful, eh? Maybe that's because they have no incentive not to be wasteful..

The leadership and composition of Congress has changed numerous times over the years without change to management ideology. It does not seem likely that electing mildly different people will change the management ideology. Management acted in accordance with the incentives they were presented with.

I can't say NASA seems particularly wasteful outside ways in which they are mandated to be so.

Re: NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode

#117

Post by nick238 »

jccooper wrote: post #114
wongarsu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breaking gyros are a recurring issue for Hubble. Hubble has 6 (3 spares, 3 for full operation). They replaced them 3 times with space shuttle missions because they kept breaking. Now Hubble is down to 2 functioning gyros again and we no longer have a space craft with the capability to service satellites. They decided to shut one of the gyros off so they still have a slightly used spare once this one breaks.

Dragon has capability for a Hubble servicing mission. It would need more development than a Shuttle visit, but it's not a huge hurdle since the last visit installed a soft-capture mechanism. (It'd probably cost less than an equivalent Shuttle mission, just due to Shuttle's high launch costs.) SpaceX even prepared a proposal in a Space Act Agreement but NASA declined it recently. Sierra Nevada also has looked at doing…

The Nancy Grace Roman telescope is a replacement in most respects, though it doesn't have the deep UV capabilities (HST could go down to 115 nm, Roman goes down to 480 nm). Not sure why UV isn't as important to newer telescopes, but if it was as critical to have high-spatial-resolution UV measurements, they'd probably have flown one in addition to Webb and Roman.

Re: NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode

#118

Post by pavon »

zootboy wrote: post #93
barbegal wrote: post #44

There's a technical description of how the one gyro control system here https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/20080023344/downloads/20... Essentially using other sensors (star tracker and magnetometer) and kalman filtering for sensor fusion.

Very cool that they were developing the one-gyro control mode all the way back in 2004, and had in-flight tested it by 2008. Seems like they were well prepared for this eventuality.

That's because this isn't the first time Hubble has been down to two working gyros. It happened before in 1999 (replaced a few months later), and they were worried it would happen again after 2003 when the Shuttles were grounded (actually got down to three/six working before replacement in 2009).

Re: NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode

#119

Post by akira2501 »

tempnow987 wrote: post #69
tonetegeatinst wrote: post #7

NASA has such a tiny budget in comparison to other stuff....so they really have to stretch that money as far as they can, and especially considering spacecraft....its a very unforgiving production environment. Am I making a joke about deploying in production? Yes, yes I am. But I also know NASA really does the best they can and I am amazed at the insane work and effort that they do to make sure spacecraft they send a…

Except you look at what they are spending on the entire SLS infrastructure vs what they are getting (vs other science options and/or space exploration options) and basically your mind is blown at how wasteful NASA is. SLS is a $2-$3 billion per launch DISPOSABLE rocket. The orion capsule is going to be something like $20 billion(!). I think things like launch abort and service module with all the propulsion etc are a…

> SLS is a $2-$3 billion per launch DISPOSABLE rocket.

That's the estimated cost for the first four launches only.

> The orion capsule is going to be something like $20 billion(!).

We developed it from scratch and it took 20 years and it's capable of sending a crew to Mars.

What do you think this _should_ have cost?

Re: NASA releases Hubble image taken in new pointing mode

#120

Post by mturmon »

jagger27 wrote: post #12

Hubble is such a productive piece of an equipment. What a shame there has been only one pointing outwards all these years.

It's not quite that bad.

Hubble is primarily optical wavelengths. The other Great [space-based] Observatories are in IR, X-rays, and gamma rays:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Observatories_program

The notion of grouping them as "Great Observatories", AFAIK, came circa the mid-1980s, after Hubble was already getting underway in earnest.

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