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Perplexity is a bullshit machine

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Re: Perplexity is a bullshit machine

#21

Post by bnchrch »

brigadier132 wrote: post #18
bnchrch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can both agree on the unfortunate future. But I think we can also both agree hoping that people will abide by your robots.txt file wont save us from that unfortunate future.

I think the difference is that now that the sites doing the scraping don't have a mutually beneficial relationship with the creator.

No, the difference is that theres nothing forcing you to abide by a robots.txt

As long as that content is valuable it will be scraped and used.

Theres no solution to this. So the structure of content sites will have to adapt.

How? I dont know, likely will vary by publication and content type.

Is it fair? Probably not

Is it stoppable? No. Not without heavy, global legislation. (read impossible)

Re: Perplexity is a bullshit machine

#22

Post by mrkramer »

First mistake of Perplexity was strategical one of not going head to head with Google and making its product open and free to use. They could've offered freemium type model where you could use Perplexity for free and see ads but if you want no ads and some extra perks, you can buy subscription.

The second problem is not exclusive to Perplexity but to overall LLM chat industry and that is; we as users don't know how their index looks like and how they rank their results (answers). When I ask Perplexity a question, how does it decide which sources to pick when answering me?

Re: Perplexity is a bullshit machine

#23

Post by jaredwiener »

Workaccount2 wrote: post #16

The existential dread in the media is plainly apparent nowadays. I'm not saying they don't have a point (the media), or that they are publishing outright lies to debase LLMs. But something in the way the tidal wave of "LLM's are bad" articles are written just has this panicked tone of "we are so fucked" underneath them. The hostility is so plainly apparent. It's just fascinating to see it happen in real time since LL…

Because technology aside, its a new group of well funded companies who act as parasites on this already struggling industry.

I know HN (and probably SV at large) has an anti-journalist bent, but ultimately by draining the individuals and companies that do the reporting, they wont have new material to scrape in the future.

(Disclosure - I'm a former journalist building a way for the news industry to fight back. https://letsgo.forth.news)

Re: Perplexity is a bullshit machine

#24

Post by EncomLab »

JohnMakin wrote: post #11
EncomLab wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but I do think it's a huge deal. It's like people who think that an ATM is expressing gratitude when it displays "Thank you" on the screen. One of the greatest challenges facing humanity right now is "de-wooing" technology and somehow breaking the illusion that they are capable of all the BS marketing and hype kings and pushing out there today.

I agree with this and the parent comment, but I do find it amusing that you will get different behavior from some language models if you are polite to them. That probably isn't helping people's perception of them, in the fact that when treated like they are human they try to emulate that. Kind of like their entire purpose is to pass a turing test, which they do pretty well. Unfortunately passing a turing test does no…

Which illustrates the other big point of confusion - the Turing test measures the ability of the judge and not the participants.

Re: Perplexity is a bullshit machine

#25

Post by mrkramer »

jaredwiener wrote: post #23
Workaccount2 wrote: post #16

The existential dread in the media is plainly apparent nowadays. I'm not saying they don't have a point (the media), or that they are publishing outright lies to debase LLMs. But something in the way the tidal wave of "LLM's are bad" articles are written just has this panicked tone of "we are so fucked" underneath them. The hostility is so plainly apparent. It's just fascinating to see it happen in real time since LL…

Because technology aside, its a new group of well funded companies who act as parasites on this already struggling industry. I know HN (and probably SV at large) has an anti-journalist bent, but ultimately by draining the individuals and companies that do the reporting, they wont have new material to scrape in the future. (Disclosure - I'm a former journalist building a way for the news industry to fight back. https:…

News industry is struggling but scraping public web content is legal as far as it is not commercially used....at least that's my layman understanding (but Perplexity is using it commercially). The solution for news industry with regards to LLMs is licensing your news and content to LLMs products because they are going to keep scraping it anyways.

Re: Perplexity is a bullshit machine

#26

Post by jaredwiener »

mrkramer wrote: post #25
jaredwiener wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because technology aside, its a new group of well funded companies who act as parasites on this already struggling industry. I know HN (and probably SV at large) has an anti-journalist bent, but ultimately by draining the individuals and companies that do the reporting, they wont have new material to scrape in the future. (Disclosure - I'm a former journalist building a way for the news industry to fight back. https:…

News industry is struggling but scraping public web content is legal as far as it is not commercially used....at least that's my layman understanding (but Perplexity is using it commercially). The solution for news industry with regards to LLMs is licensing your news and content to LLMs products because they are going to keep scraping it anyways.

"You might as well make a deal with the people stealing your content because they are going to keep stealing it anyway" is not a great option.

Part of licensing is the implicit understanding that if the parties do not come to a deal, they cannot use the licensed content. It seems from this article that Perplexity is not operating in good faith, ignoring robots.txt, using unpublished IP addresses, and then lying about the amount of referral traffic generated.

Not to mention, whether or not its legal (and im not a lawyer) doesn't seem to be the issue. It's being so shortsighted that you build a business that steals a product from an unwitting third party, and when that third party is drained of resources, where will you pull from?

Re: Perplexity is a bullshit machine

#27

Post by jaredwiener »

bnchrch wrote: post #21
brigadier132 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the difference is that now that the sites doing the scraping don't have a mutually beneficial relationship with the creator.

No, the difference is that theres nothing forcing you to abide by a robots.txt As long as that content is valuable it will be scraped and used. Theres no solution to this. So the structure of content sites will have to adapt. How? I dont know, likely will vary by publication and content type. Is it fair? Probably not Is it stoppable? No. Not without heavy, global legislation. (read impossible)

This is such a weird take.

If a house is robbed, you don't give the burglars a pass and say "well their security system wasn't very good."

Yes, the defensive measures probably need improvement. But that doesn't mean that the act they are defending against is wrong.

Re: Perplexity is a bullshit machine

#28

Post by mrkramer »

jaredwiener wrote: post #26
mrkramer wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News industry is struggling but scraping public web content is legal as far as it is not commercially used....at least that's my layman understanding (but Perplexity is using it commercially). The solution for news industry with regards to LLMs is licensing your news and content to LLMs products because they are going to keep scraping it anyways.

"You might as well make a deal with the people stealing your content because they are going to keep stealing it anyway" is not a great option. Part of licensing is the implicit understanding that if the parties do not come to a deal, they cannot use the licensed content. It seems from this article that Perplexity is not operating in good faith, ignoring robots.txt, using unpublished IP addresses, and then lying about…

>ignoring robots.txt

Robots.txt is not legally binding, it is a good will among web stakeholders to respect it. But if you are repeatedly breaking it, you will have an army of web masters against you.

And as far as I remember, big news outlets are already suing LLMs companies or are already licensing their content to them.

Re: Perplexity is a bullshit machine

#29

Post by segasaturn »

jaredwiener wrote: post #23
Workaccount2 wrote: post #16

The existential dread in the media is plainly apparent nowadays. I'm not saying they don't have a point (the media), or that they are publishing outright lies to debase LLMs. But something in the way the tidal wave of "LLM's are bad" articles are written just has this panicked tone of "we are so fucked" underneath them. The hostility is so plainly apparent. It's just fascinating to see it happen in real time since LL…

Because technology aside, its a new group of well funded companies who act as parasites on this already struggling industry. I know HN (and probably SV at large) has an anti-journalist bent, but ultimately by draining the individuals and companies that do the reporting, they wont have new material to scrape in the future. (Disclosure - I'm a former journalist building a way for the news industry to fight back. https:…

Well, as of the last 10 years the journalism industry has just been a lazy tweet regurgitation factory. The pipeline looks something like Tweets -> Journalists -> LLMs. So maybe it would be best if we cut out the middlemen?

Re: Perplexity is a bullshit machine

#30

Post by jaredwiener »

brigadier132 wrote: post #7
bnchrch wrote: post #3

Part of this article is someone upset that a company is ignoring the robots.txt file and scraping their site. To that I say boo-hoo. Many other companies already do this (not just Perplexity), Your moat shouldn't be hoping that actors follow your arbitrary business rules, and having data available to all (humans/robots) is a net benefit to all.

> Your moat shouldn't be hoping that actors follow your arbitrary business rules, All these "should" statements always seem to be baseless opinion masquerading as fact. The unfortunate future is going to be all data hidden behind a login screen. Creators being able to sustain themselves is more important than consumers being able to get free and more convenient things. If consumers don't want to pay for something the…

"Moat" implies preventing competition.

This isn't competition, Perplexity isn't doing their own reporting and seeing who gets more readers/revenue. This is wholesale theft.

CVS's moat isn't the security guard standing at the door. But like parent comment said, this is going to create the digital equivalent of those plastic lock covers over the decongestants.

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