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Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

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Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#161

Post by bytesandbots »

hackerlight wrote: post #15

"French electricity prices turned negative as a drop in demand and surging renewables output prompted some nuclear reactors to power down." This is an issue with nuclear in a net zero scenario. Nuclear starts out at 90%+ capacity factor, like in California today. But as fossil fuels become a low percentage of the grid, you inevitably get a low capacity factor which increases LCOE. Even if you don't want any renewable…

The levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) is the rate of the total energy output of the energy system to build and operate it over its lifetime to the average total cost of the system over that lifetime.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#162

Post by stkdump »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #20
stkdump wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is likely that the times where French renewables flood the market roughly coincide with the times where German renewables flood the market, which where 60% of the supply even in the winter. The few remaining times where that isn't the case are probably not relevant. I mean every bit helps of equalizing over a larger area can help, but we likely need interconnects with places that are a bit farther away than France…

Spain is awash in clean energy from renewables [1] and has large interconnect capabilities with Portugal (~5GW). Between both countries [2] [3], they operate very close to ~90% low carbon most of the time. Spain's last coal fired generator retires in August 2024 [4]. We must push east with low carbon power, as that is where the dirty grids are (see live ElectricityMaps app map scoped to Europe for context). [1] https…

Right, move Spains clean energy east, this is what I said. Also move Norways clean energy south.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#163

Post by helsinkiandrew »

guerby wrote: post #69
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yet their energy prices aren't "too cheap to meter" French nuclear power is run by EDF, which although 85% owned by the French government has “a mandate to make a profit for its shareholders”

EDF is 100% owned by the french government since 20230608: https://presse.economie.gouv.fr/08062023-letat-redevient-lac...

But it still makes a profit and pays tax on it. https://www.edf.fr/sites/groupe/files/epresspack/7068/PR-FY-...

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#164

Post by chickenbig »

Day ahead prices turning negative does not mean the wind and solar generators make a loss for every kWh they sell; they still receive country specific subsidies (production tax credits, feed-in-tariffs, contract for difference, renewables obligations ... and let's not forget about investment subsidies which helped to get the plant built) which make it worth their while to keep the blades spinning and the solar inverters humming. Otherwise what is the argument for subject your equipment to wear-and-tear and then paying for someone to take your product?

In addition there are more general system costs (the need for capacity payments to ensure electricity can be generated at peak times, as well as maintaining plants in reserve in case the weather isn't what was forecast the day ahead).

By this line of argument, negative prices on sunny/windy days increase the price of electricity to the consumer, since all of these subsidies need to be recouped (either by the tax or energy systems).

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#165

Post by flakeoil »

chickenbig wrote: post #164

Day ahead prices turning negative does not mean the wind and solar generators make a loss for every kWh they sell; they still receive country specific subsidies (production tax credits, feed-in-tariffs, contract for difference, renewables obligations ... and let's not forget about investment subsidies which helped to get the plant built) which make it worth their while to keep the blades spinning and the solar invert…

It's hard to draw a link between negative prices and increased subsidies in most cases. The subsidies can be recouped during the no-negative periods. In addition, subsidies are not needed anymore to make wind and solar cost competitive. And with increased use of electric cars (and battery storage in general) we will see increased usage of this negative pricing to charge them so the negative price will diminish or go away.

Don't forget that we still produce most of our energy from coal, oil and gas. Most of that needs and will be replaced by electricity so there is a huge need for more electricity.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#166

Post by aitchnyu »

purew wrote: post #155
jimbobthrowawy wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the price swings were frequent and steep enough, you could probably have your batteries send power back to the grid when the price gets high. I doubt the economics work, but I'd love to live in a world where a lot of the grid's battery storage is based on backup batteries people have at their houses with the added bonus of reducing their billing costs.

This is reality, att least in Sweden. You can invest in battery storage att your house and give control of it to the power company. They will then use the locally available power storage to either feed back to the grid or store excess of capacity and needed. It can be quite profitable from what i heard, in relation to installing solar cells.

A utility offers (relatively) flat rates to domestic consumers, while purchasing some kilowatt-hours at higher or lower order of magnitude. When utility compensates a domestic consumer, its at the high order of magnitude.

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#167

Post by kseistrup »

Y_Y wrote: post #8
kseistrup wrote: post #4

They ought to flood something towards Denmark. Right now, in this moment, I pay roughly 0.49€ (3.66 DKK) per kWh.

Depends on where you are! Jutland and Fyn can share via the Central European grid whereas Sjaelland is on the Nordic grid with Sweden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Continenta... (There are several HVDC links between those grids, but as I understand it that adds capacitance for the purpose of pricing.)

Indeed. I am on the island of Bornholm, just South of Sweden. There is only one cable connecting Bornholm, and it comes from Sweden (and once every couple of year a ship is sailing with its anchor out and tears the sea cable, so powercuts are longer and more frequent here than I'd prefer, but that's a story for another time).

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#168

Post by chickenbig »

flakeoil wrote: post #165
chickenbig wrote: post #164

Day ahead prices turning negative does not mean the wind and solar generators make a loss for every kWh they sell; they still receive country specific subsidies (production tax credits, feed-in-tariffs, contract for difference, renewables obligations ... and let's not forget about investment subsidies which helped to get the plant built) which make it worth their while to keep the blades spinning and the solar invert…

It's hard to draw a link between negative prices and increased subsidies in most cases. The subsidies can be recouped during the no-negative periods. In addition, subsidies are not needed anymore to make wind and solar cost competitive. And with increased use of electric cars (and battery storage in general) we will see increased usage of this negative pricing to charge them so the negative price will diminish or go…

> subsidies are not needed anymore to make wind and solar cost competitive

See https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/docume... where the European Commission approved the plan for the French state to give aid to push renewable deployment in France.

I google translated section 2.2 (paragraph 9) of the ruling document

> ... As such, the French authorities consider that there are “positive external effects” linked to the development of renewable electrical energies, in particular the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions from the electricity sector and the benefits in terms of robustness of the electricity sector. electricity supply linked to a more diversified electricity mix. These external effects are positive for the community but cannot be “monetized” by the investor. The French authorities consider that public support is necessary to have an investment in renewable energies that meets the expected collective benefits.

I would have expected inflation and interest rate changes to have negatively affected the viability of renewables. That is certainly the case for offshore wind in the UK (AR5 failed to produce any bids, AR6 has 66% higher maximum bid).

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#169

Post by robertlagrant »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #82
serial_dev wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know and even learned as a (since failed) physicist, a country needs a good mixture of energy sources. Mind you I went to a university that's nuclear energy focused and even they didn't advocate for full on only nuclear. In my opinion, if someone says we should just have all nuclear, it means they are dealing in absolutes, maybe God in politics and debate, but they ignore that reality is much more complic…

Nuclear is very poor for baseline requirements. Baseline requirements should be met by the cheapest source and more expensive sources should only be added as required to follow demand.

If you price in pollution, doesn't nuclear become the cheapest base load provider?

Re: Electricity prices in France turn negative as renewable energy floods the grid

#170

Post by robertlagrant »

mrguyorama wrote: post #105
WheatMillington wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you hear that? I've only ever heard about how nuclear is both capital and opex intensive and very expensive.

It was a common BS claim in the Reagan years, as to why we didn't need to invest in renewables back then. "Why bother, soon all this nuclear energy will basically be free". This has nothing to do with what anyone actually said. Just ask any 60-something, mild conservative. The meme exists, even though the actual quote was slightly more mealy mouthed. It was always nonsense anyway. Electricity generation is mostly a d…

From Wikipedia[0], admittedly:

> Most reactors began construction by 1974; following the Three Mile Island accident in 1979 and changing economics, many planned projects were canceled. More than 100 orders for nuclear power reactors, many already under construction, were canceled in the 1970s and 1980s, bankrupting some companies.

How does that square with your recollection? Or were lots of nuclear power plants being constructed in the 1980s, and the article is very wrong?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_the_United_St...

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