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Salt, We Misjudged You

nytimes.com

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Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#111

Post by watmough »

joe_the_user wrote: post #79
arn wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The idea that "salt is bad" has just as shaky underpinnings as "lower blood pressure is good". Wait, "lower blood pressure is good" has shaky underpinnings? Is there a debate on that? I don't think there's a debate that high blood pressure results in worse (death/disease) outcomes.

"Wait, "lower blood pressure is good" has shaky underpinnings? Is there a debate on that? I don't think there's a debate that high blood pressure results in worse (death/disease) outcomes." There's no debate that high blood is associated with heart disease. There's always "a debate" if you try to go from correlation to cause. You always have to be careful this. You have to show that a particular mechanism for lowerin…

"There's no debate that high blood is associated with heart disease. There's always "a debate" if you try to go from correlation to cause. You always have to be careful this."

I always thought that high blood pressure was caused by destruction of the lining of the arteries, and stiffening of the tissue, rather than water retention.

Control of blood pressure is dependent on this delicate balance of tissues against the pumping of the heart, as well as production of the substances that allow you to be sexually active.

Hence the fortuitous discovery of Viagra whilst searching for blood pressure control medications.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#112

Post by whatusername »

Panoramix wrote: post #30
juliano_q wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson is also great and changed my life. Reading 'Good Calories Bad Calories' now from Gary Taubes (the author of the op) and it is awesome too.

Thanks for the references. Are they solid science? all I have personally come across about the paleo diet is unconvincing and does not stand up to scrutiny. "I want to believe" would be my stance.

“The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Living” has a pretty serious chunk of science. (To the point at least where I felt out of my depth)

Did you catch Leo Laporte / Steve Gibson (ala Security Now) covering LCHF diets a few weeks ago?

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#113

Post by whatusername »

fein wrote: post #54
Cushman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's the idea behind the "All Natural AC'CENT® Flavor Enhancer" branding-- they don't say "monosodium glutamate" anywhere on the package except the ingredients. I just call it supersalt . Because it's like salt, but not salty!

Technically, MSG is supposed to be the "extra" taste area they didn't know about/ teach in school. So although it seems salty, it's actually the savory flavor. MSG is found in just about every single food you eat that has that "savory" flavor.

The "Extra" taste is called Umami: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami

Also -- despite what you may have learned in school -- the taste buds aren't mapped to areas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions (Search for Taste for links to the relevant sources)

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#114

Post by creamyhorror »

psykotic wrote: post #78
iand wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fats and proteins are more filling and satisfying per gram than carbs. The pizza example you give is basically wrong. Carbs would be the largest source of calories. For example see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fast-foods-generic/9307/... which is for a 2500 calorie pepperoni pizza. Almost half the calories come from carbs.

> Fats and proteins are more filling and satisfying per gram than carbs. Again, that statement makes no sense. You don't eat carbs, fats and proteins. You eat foods. Is 100 calories of olive oil as filling as 100 calories of asparagus (about a pound)? If that's too extreme, I'd still gladly put up your 100 calories of olive oil (a few spoonfuls) against my 100 calories of white rice (a small bowl) for satiety and ful…

His statement was on a per-gram basis, which seems pretty much obviously true (since it basically says that fat is more energy-dense than carbs).

Nonetheless, like jcheng I'm interested in what you've learned from your research. I've also been looking into low-carb/ketogenic diets, and a friend does intermittent fasting (IF), and there are a host of clashing opinions and studies of varying quality on everything. Taubes, Lustig, Aragorn...my conclusion is that we still know very little about the effects of diet composition.

I've switched mostly to sugar substitutes and reduced my carb intake because it seems like something most would agree upon. My IFing friend claims IF/caloric restriction is one of the few things actually shown to significantly prolong lifespans in animals. Do you have any knowledge of these things, or of better-done studies I should be reading? Thanks.

edit: I've just been reading Guyenet and what he says is quite interesting

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#115

Post by ktizo »

rubashov wrote: post #103
mark_l_watson wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that we all have unique metabolisms and the real "science" is the personal study of how we feel physically correlated with what we have been eating, amount of exercise, lack of tension, etc. I ended up as a vegetarian (with a little fish) because I kept track of how I felt and compared with recently eaten food. I have friends who thrive on high meat diets. We are all different.

A lot of people "feel" fine but blood work shows they're insulin resistant, have various deficiencies, or are loaded with cortisol. Going by "feeling" really doesn't work. Also, the evidence against a vegetarian diet is overwhelming.

the evidence against a vegetarian diet is overwhelming

Someone better warn the Buddhist monks, they've been at it a while and if only they'd known they might have lived a bit longer.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#117

Post by jasonwatkinspdx »

artsrc wrote: post #90
crazygringo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He points out that the DASH study didn't conclude anything about death or cardiovascular disease. Yes, that's true. So sure, there's a chance that despite blood pressure reductions a low salt diet could cause problems. But it's not the obvious conclusion. That's the whole point, you say it yourself. The idea that "salt is bad" has just as shaky underpinnings as "lower blood pressure is good". The only thing we care…

The studies are not conclusive. Populations with low sodium intake, and other factors, have no hypertension, and low rates of death and disease from heart disease. The randomized studies have found lower death and disease from lower sodium. So far the probability that this is just chance is about 10%. So the standard p number is not reached. The most likely outcome is that a bigger better studies will produce signifi…

Thank you for such precision concerning statistical semantics.

But I also find the non-experimental data compelling. I think more long term data will clear this up eventually.

It is urgent that we solve foundational debates in statistics. The health and economies of the world hang on this very point. So far Judea Pearl's work is the most compelling I've found. Do you have any references you'd suggest?

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#118

Post by kijin »

fein wrote: post #23
Cushman wrote: post #20

All right! Next up: MSG. Even those of my friends who know that the health concerns are bogus have a weird paranoia of MSG. I think it's a general suspicion of any chemical which makes food taste better (which somehow doesn't apply to salt and sugar).

I think part of the problem with MSG is the name. It's hard to convince the general public that something with the name "Monosodium Glutamate" is a naturally occurring substance, let alone one of the more abundant naturally occurring amino acids. Hell, if we called table salt "Sodium Chloride" all the time, people would probably have a bit of a changed perspective. None the less, MSG is delicious!

You're probably right. Did you know that dihydrogen monoxide kills thousands of people every year? That substance has been found in the blood of every terrorist and serial killer in human history. Scary stuff if you put it that way.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#119

Post by ronaldj »

muraiki wrote: post #34
3pt14159 wrote: post #12

Sort of an aside here, but salt and MSG should be used to increase the tastiness of otherwise bland foods, like asparagus, so that what you eat is more in line with what your body needs, rather than what is the most tasty in our post-industrial world. That is how I use salt: reduce starches and refined grains, and increase vegetables, lentils, and the like. Sure I still have some bread and a normal amount of meat (at…

We might also want to think about _why_ some foods taste bland. I feel that I'd never really tasted what a tomato tastes like until I had some at a monastery in Greece. I was surprised to see tomatoes sitting out at dinner, seemingly to be eaten as-is along with the meal. I bit into one and it had a flavor unlike any tomato I've ever had in the USA. I could finally understand that a tomato is a fruit! It was nicely s…

My parents grew tomatoes in their garden every summer here in the US. I've been eating tomatoes like that since I was a child. Sliced, as a side, in the summer, with a little salt and pepper. I only do this when they are homegrown though.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#120

Post by DeepDuh »

arn wrote: post #45
crazygringo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He points out that the DASH study didn't conclude anything about death or cardiovascular disease. Yes, that's true. So sure, there's a chance that despite blood pressure reductions a low salt diet could cause problems. But it's not the obvious conclusion. That's the whole point, you say it yourself. The idea that "salt is bad" has just as shaky underpinnings as "lower blood pressure is good". The only thing we care…

> The idea that "salt is bad" has just as shaky underpinnings as "lower blood pressure is good". Wait, "lower blood pressure is good" has shaky underpinnings? Is there a debate on that? I don't think there's a debate that high blood pressure results in worse (death/disease) outcomes.

Here, let me give you a tranquilizer a day. Lower blood pressure is always good, right?
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