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EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

patrick-breyer.de

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Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#101

Post by tensor »

londons_explore wrote: post #26
linuxandrew wrote: post #3

Signal Foundation has already said they would leave the EU if Chat Control goes ahead. https://mastodon.world/@Mer__edith/112535616774247450

Signal isn't big enough to play that game. They'll just be blocked from the app store for EU users and their user base in the EU will drop to near zero within a year.

"Play that game"?

They are not somehow bluffing or threatening this simply to try to change the law. It's a principled stance that they simply cannot provide E2E encrypted chat under such conditions. So either they break their protocol in which case their claimed offer would be a lie, or they leave.

Seems like the only choice they have, really. Also, by "leave EU" I'm pretty sure they mean not offer their app in the EU, so yes I think they expect their EU user base to be zero in this scenario.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#102

Post by squigz »

hanniabu wrote: post #96
squigz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically the circle breaks only with revolution and violence . This sort of rhetoric is dangerous. > Maybe checks and balances would work as a system It does seem to be working well in America.

> This sort of rhetoric is dangerous. For governments. > It does seem to be working well in America. They say ignorance is bliss.

> For governments.

Ahh yes, because only government officials die in war.

> They say ignorance is bliss.

Who's ignorant?

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#103

Post by squigz »

realce wrote: post #98
squigz wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Historically the circle breaks only with revolution and violence . This sort of rhetoric is dangerous. > Maybe checks and balances would work as a system It does seem to be working well in America.

> This sort of rhetoric is dangerous How?

Because it implies the only way forward is with violence, a premise I thoroughly reject.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#104

Post by throwawayfear »

gpvos wrote: post #89
throwawayfear wrote: post #78

EU continues its descent into an authoritarian surveillance state. I hope all the EU netizens wake up and realize how much more control the EU has been exerting over its citizens since the pandemic.

It hasn't, apart from this Chat Control.

Covid restrictions were significantly worse in the EU than USA, your government locked you all down and made it clear that they decide who works and who doesn’t. To be clear, the USA has some awful cities with those types of ideas too but it was far more rare. EU, Canada, and Australia showed they are teetering towards authoritarian surveillance states more than they are democracy. The more people put their head in the sand and justify these actions with the talking points they receive from the overlords, the more the water starts to boil.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#105

Post by sickofparadox »

consumer451 wrote: post #72
dauertewigkeit wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate speech accusations are a bit like being accused of rape. Once it happens you automatically get tainted and it is very hard to defend yourself in the public sphere, even if the accusations are totally unfounded. This is of course abused by evil people. Moreover, what counts as hate speech can very suddenly alter depending on whoever is in charge, and even if the public don't go along with it, it can still be used…

I am not directing this at you, or anyone here, truly. However, this XKCD always come to mind whenever I hear the topics of hate speech and free speech mentioned within proximity of each other: https://xkcd.com/1357/

This XKCD sucks and is essentially a thought-terminating cliche.

https://sealedabstract.com/rants/re-xkcd-1357-free-speech/in...

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#106

Post by timeon »

ricardobeat wrote: post #79
Macha wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ahem what? Last I checked any EU country can veto anything on its own. Only on certain topics, which have been narrowed down over time. For most areas (including something like chat control), it comes down to Qualified Majority Voting, which needs at least 55% of countries representing at least 65% of EU population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_in_the_Council_of_the_E...

55%? That’s a pretty low bar for laws that will become written in stone for decades.

Brexit was even lower.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#107

Post by Dig1t »

gpvos wrote: post #84
Dig1t wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Client side scanning is going to be required, it doesn’t matter if you’re on a VPN if your device is self-reporting.

How would my device be (self-)reporting?

>End-to-end encrypted services such as Whatsapp or Signal would have to implement the automated searches “prior to transmission” of a message (so-called client-side scanning, Article 10a).

So app developers would be required to add code that will scan every message you send for "sensitive" content (which can be defined however the politicians like and be changed any time), and the app will report your message to the government.

https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/majority-for-chat-control-p...

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#108

Post by dauertewigkeit »

consumer451 wrote: post #72
dauertewigkeit wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hate speech accusations are a bit like being accused of rape. Once it happens you automatically get tainted and it is very hard to defend yourself in the public sphere, even if the accusations are totally unfounded. This is of course abused by evil people. Moreover, what counts as hate speech can very suddenly alter depending on whoever is in charge, and even if the public don't go along with it, it can still be used…

I am not directing this at you, or anyone here, truly. However, this XKCD always come to mind whenever I hear the topics of hate speech and free speech mentioned within proximity of each other: https://xkcd.com/1357/

I have an example in mind, a very recent one, in which case it was indeed the government abusing hate speech laws to silence critics. Ask Greta Thunberg.

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#109

Post by StrLght »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #22
FredPret wrote: post #4

This is why the roles of the major players in society (government, monopolies) need to be circumscribed. Large organizations will always try to grow in size and power. We need some sort of human right for digital privacy to make this sort of thing illegal.

Free speech absolutists like myself got run over culturally with hate speech laws so for anyone continuing on the fight I wish you the best of luck.

Honest question: why would a free speech absolutist start a discussion here, on this site? I have a feeling that plenty of rules here [0] wouldn't be accepted by such a crowd.

[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: EU to greenlight Chat Control tomorrow

#110

Post by consumer451 »

Dig1t wrote: post #87
consumer451 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anti-hate speech got you? What were you trying to say exactly? One can go on X right now and spew any hate speech that one wants. How about just political opinions? How quickly we forgot "free speech zones." This is the government actually limiting public speech in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_speech_zone BTW, I am not for this regulation in any way. I just don't see the connection to hate speech.

OP specified “culturally”, ie people who stand up for free speech regardless of its content are painted as alt-right bigots, even if they only care about preserving the right to speak freely. I’m also in this camp and have been down-voted into oblivion many times for just saying something like “I disagree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it”. It’s not fun to be a defender of truly fr…

I don't believe that anyone is truly for absolute free speech, it's just some theoretical utopia which sounds great, until you actually dive into details. Would you defend my right to call your little brother or sister terrible disgusting names? Threaten you or your family's lives? Say that your entire ethnicity doesn't deserve to exist? Because that would be absolute free speech. I don't think anybody should have the right to do that. I mean they can try, but if it happened in real life, they'd find out real quick that it wasn't a good idea.

If you disagree with me on major issues, I will defend your right to state that. But if I find myself in a place full of hate, be they nazis, or tankies, or whatever, I leave and don't come back.

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