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Salt, We Misjudged You

nytimes.com

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Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#41

Post by crazygringo »

arn wrote: post #25

So, I always cringe a little when I read medical conclusions in the mainstream media. And I'll be upfront. I'm probably biased on the side of medicine on this one. I'm a former nephrologist. The one study this person mentions by name (and dismisses) is the DASH-Sodium Study. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DASH_diet#Study_Results "Like the previous study, it was based on a large sample (412 participants) and was a multi…

> He points out that the DASH study didn't conclude anything about death or cardiovascular disease. Yes, that's true. So sure, there's a chance that despite blood pressure reductions a low salt diet could cause problems. But it's not the obvious conclusion.

That's the whole point, you say it yourself. The idea that "salt is bad" has just as shaky underpinnings as "lower blood pressure is good". The only thing we care about is death or disease, not lowering blood pressure. So even if less salt = lower blood pressure, that doesn't tell us if this is good, or harmful.

The obvious conclusion is that there is no conclusion.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#42

Post by juliano_q »

Panoramix wrote: post #30
juliano_q wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson is also great and changed my life. Reading 'Good Calories Bad Calories' now from Gary Taubes (the author of the op) and it is awesome too.

Thanks for the references. Are they solid science? all I have personally come across about the paleo diet is unconvincing and does not stand up to scrutiny. "I want to believe" would be my stance.

If you look for more references and science debate, I suggest 'Good Calories Bad Calories' from Taubes. 'The Primal Blueprint' has some references but it is more focused on the practical matter. I can say that it worked very well for me and 2 other friends that tried it.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#43

Post by psykotic »

juliano_q wrote: post #40
jere wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I loved GCBC, but unfortunately Taubes goes a little bit too far near the end in condemning carbohydrates. It's really hard to recommend the book because of that overreaching. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/08/carbohydrate-h...

There is a long debate over this post. I personally found the best answer to the matter here: http://paleohacks.com/questions/49970/how-do-we-reconcile-st... Taubes also responded to Guyenet: http://garytaubes.com/2011/11/catching-up-on-lost-time-%E2%8...

> Taubes also responded to Guyenet

Guyenet also responded to Taubes: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2011/11/brief-response...

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#44

Post by heretohelp »

merlincorey wrote: post #10
jswinghammer wrote: post #7

As someone who has lost around 40 pounds of fat switching to the high fat paleo diet I'm not at all surprised that the current state of the conventional wisdom on food is wrong in any number of ways. It is funny that we really have no idea what we should be eating naturally at all. Grains were making me sick and I didn't notice for years. It wasn't until I read a book listing side effects of grain consumption that I…

I always knew salt and vinegar chips were good for me!

High-fat paleo diets avoid starchy/carby foods like chips fyi.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#45

Post by arn »

crazygringo wrote: post #41
arn wrote: post #25

So, I always cringe a little when I read medical conclusions in the mainstream media. And I'll be upfront. I'm probably biased on the side of medicine on this one. I'm a former nephrologist. The one study this person mentions by name (and dismisses) is the DASH-Sodium Study. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DASH_diet#Study_Results "Like the previous study, it was based on a large sample (412 participants) and was a multi…

> He points out that the DASH study didn't conclude anything about death or cardiovascular disease. Yes, that's true. So sure, there's a chance that despite blood pressure reductions a low salt diet could cause problems. But it's not the obvious conclusion. That's the whole point, you say it yourself. The idea that "salt is bad" has just as shaky underpinnings as "lower blood pressure is good". The only thing we care…

> The idea that "salt is bad" has just as shaky underpinnings as "lower blood pressure is good".

Wait, "lower blood pressure is good" has shaky underpinnings? Is there a debate on that? I don't think there's a debate that high blood pressure results in worse (death/disease) outcomes.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#46

Post by ticks »

patrickk wrote: post #33
aero142 wrote: post #21

There was an idea in 'Fat Head' where the narrator pokes fun at the idea that we are a species who's evolution has made us so that we crave foods that are actually killing us. It's not proof that we can't crave foods like sugar, fats and salt that might be harmful to us, but I think it sets up a health amount of skepticism towards the idea that our innate cravings are in fact harmful.

" ...we are a species who's evolution has made us so that we crave foods that are actually killing us. " " ...it sets up a health amount of skepticism towards the idea that our innate cravings are in fact harmful. " It's modern processed food that's harmful. We evolved to cope with the amount of salt, sugar, carbohydrates etc. that was readily available to our ancestors on a hunter-gatherer diet (we would've reached…

Indeed. Some processing is good, but a lot of it just makes the food too easy to eat. I would argue that even processing food at home, such as mashing potatoes can be a problem unless you are careful about the portion size - i.e. remember how many potatoes were used to make it.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#47

Post by aero142 »

patrickk wrote: post #33
aero142 wrote: post #21

There was an idea in 'Fat Head' where the narrator pokes fun at the idea that we are a species who's evolution has made us so that we crave foods that are actually killing us. It's not proof that we can't crave foods like sugar, fats and salt that might be harmful to us, but I think it sets up a health amount of skepticism towards the idea that our innate cravings are in fact harmful.

" ...we are a species who's evolution has made us so that we crave foods that are actually killing us. " " ...it sets up a health amount of skepticism towards the idea that our innate cravings are in fact harmful. " It's modern processed food that's harmful. We evolved to cope with the amount of salt, sugar, carbohydrates etc. that was readily available to our ancestors on a hunter-gatherer diet (we would've reached…

Salt is a very important part of a human's diet and was a major trade item for all of recorded history. Salt has been used as a preservative for meat for as long as I'm aware of. Animals often sit and lick natural salt deposits.

There is a common belief that meat and especially fat are bad for you and cause heart disease, which is the particular idea that Fat Head makes fun of. He reduces his carb and sugar intake and lowers his cholesterol and loses weight.

I quit drinking soda and reduced my sugar intake because it made me feel bad. I sometimes crave sugar after running a lot or when I'm tired and I will occasionally drink a soda, but I usually regret it. Same with candy etc.

I can only speak for myself, but the idea that my natural cravings and the reaction of my body are good indicators of what is healthy has been very successful for me. I currently believe that fat and meat, plus vegetables are very health and I crave all these things. My body is very sugar sensitive and so I avoid it because of how I feel. The guide that my evolutionary tastes are not trying to kill me seems to be a pretty good guide towards finding a healthy diet, and I believe it will serve me better than the National Health Services recommendations have. If you believe that there is good reason that evolution may be guiding you towards something unhealthy, you may be right, but my default answer is the it is correct unless there is a better explanation.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#48

Post by dbbolton »

Increased blood osmolarity will lead to an increase in blood volume, period. If you add fluid to a closed system, the pressure of that fluid on its container will increase. However, in most cases, excess solutes should be excreted relatively quickly and blood volume will return to normal.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#49

Post by xyzzyb »

juliano_q wrote: post #42
Panoramix wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the references. Are they solid science? all I have personally come across about the paleo diet is unconvincing and does not stand up to scrutiny. "I want to believe" would be my stance.

If you look for more references and science debate, I suggest 'Good Calories Bad Calories' from Taubes. 'The Primal Blueprint' has some references but it is more focused on the practical matter. I can say that it worked very well for me and 2 other friends that tried it.

If you want to go old school you can check out the Hacker's Diet (free online, and recently got an epub version): http://www.fourmilab.ch/hackdiet/

After a lifetime of thinking that diets had to be permanent and results were only possible through hours of exercise this book turned me around. I lost 50 lbs in eight months and haven't looked back.

Re: Salt, We Misjudged You

#50

Post by 3pt14159 »

streptomycin wrote: post #32
3pt14159 wrote: post #12

Sort of an aside here, but salt and MSG should be used to increase the tastiness of otherwise bland foods, like asparagus, so that what you eat is more in line with what your body needs, rather than what is the most tasty in our post-industrial world. That is how I use salt: reduce starches and refined grains, and increase vegetables, lentils, and the like. Sure I still have some bread and a normal amount of meat (at…

> salt and MSG should be used to increase the tastiness of otherwise bland foods, like asparagus False. Asparagus (like many vegetables) should be roasted with garlic in a little bit of oil.

Heh. I never boil 'em, always grilled on the Barby or roasted in the oven and garlic is delicious.
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