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Ask HN: Best way to remove CO2 in a bedroom?

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Re: Ask HN: Best way to remove CO2 in a bedroom?

#71

For the kind of technology available to us, it could cost up to $100 a day to buy enough "soda lime" to filter out the CO2. You'd want the "color changing" type of product. You would also need HEPA filters to ensure the powder was not getting in the air. Temperature sensors would also be needed to ensure it wasn't releasing so much heat that it causes a fire. The algae route is cheaper, but needs a lot of algae.

> For the kind of technology available to us, it could cost up to $100 a day to buy enough lime soda to filter out the CO2.

Doing some napkin math based on quickly googled(maybe incorrect) numbers, 100g of lime soda can absorb 10-20L of CO2 depending on the setup. Random offer off a Google search is $30 for 1kg, and I can get it cheaper locally. To go from 1200 ppm to atmospheric 421, you need to remove ~0.8L/m³. For my 50m³ room, that's 200-400g of lime soda. CO2 takes several hours with closed windows to build up that high, though, and it'd need a control loop to avoid wasting the lime soda by scrubbing below atmospheric CO2 levels...

I thought you were being hyperbolic but, damn, yeah, this doesn't sound very viable ):

Re: Ask HN: Best way to remove CO2 in a bedroom?

#72

For the kind of technology available to us, it could cost up to $100 a day to buy enough "soda lime" to filter out the CO2. You'd want the "color changing" type of product. You would also need HEPA filters to ensure the powder was not getting in the air. Temperature sensors would also be needed to ensure it wasn't releasing so much heat that it causes a fire. The algae route is cheaper, but needs a lot of algae.

> For the kind of technology available to us, it could cost up to $100 a day to buy enough lime soda to filter out the CO2. Doing some napkin math based on quickly googled(maybe incorrect) numbers, 100g of lime soda can absorb 10-20L of CO2 depending on the setup. Random offer off a Google search is $30 for 1kg, and I can get it cheaper locally. To go from 1200 ppm to atmospheric 421, you need to remove ~0.8L/m³. For…

Thanks for the math. The parent comment has been slightly edited.

I'd ideally want the CO2 to be the preindustrial level of under 300 ppm. The reason is that I suspect it could lead to maximum alertness and a feeling of well-being.

Note that some ventilation still is needed during the day to get O2 and remove VOCs, so the calculations are affected.

In your calculation, remember to account for the presence of people who constantly breathe out CO2. This and the need for some ventilation add to the cost.

Re: Ask HN: Best way to remove CO2 in a bedroom?

#75
post #69
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We also find that simply cracking the windows in the winter makes a large and measurable difference in CO2, but not with heat. Have you maybe done measurements of what difference between the inside and outside temperature is enough to reduce CO2 without a fan?

Temperature isn't going to be much of a factor at the temperatures and temperature differences humans encounter in their homes. The dominant factor in CO₂ exchange is the difference in CO₂ concentrations. Imagine a completely closed room surrounded by open atmosphere with the room air having twice the number of CO₂ molecules per m^3 as the open atmosphere. The room air and the outside air are at the same temperature.…

This is a really great explanation, and matches my experience: the effects on temperature are very small, and the effects on CO2 are very large -- and the difference is enough that this approach is absolutely worth it.

Re: Ask HN: Best way to remove CO2 in a bedroom?

#76
post #69
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We also find that simply cracking the windows in the winter makes a large and measurable difference in CO2, but not with heat. Have you maybe done measurements of what difference between the inside and outside temperature is enough to reduce CO2 without a fan?

Temperature isn't going to be much of a factor at the temperatures and temperature differences humans encounter in their homes. The dominant factor in CO₂ exchange is the difference in CO₂ concentrations. Imagine a completely closed room surrounded by open atmosphere with the room air having twice the number of CO₂ molecules per m^3 as the open atmosphere. The room air and the outside air are at the same temperature.…

Your analysis considers only diffusion of CO2 whereas my experience is that convection is also important, and running a heater is in some configurations a great way to induce convection.

I sleep in very small room -- only 45 sq feet and 45 * 8 cubic feet. I don't have a CO2 meter, but I've been sleeping in the room for decades, so I have many data points, and I am pretty sure I can tell (by noticing that my thinking is duller and stupider than usual the next day) when CO2 levels were too high overnight.

No matter how high the CO2 level are in the room, 20 minutes of having the door wide open will bring CO2 to levels I cannot distinguish from outdoor air even if there is nothing (no wind, fan or heat source) to cause convection. Here we see diffusion in action. But at night, I prefer to have the door open just an crack (about an inch). Configured that way, CO2 levels clearly get too high if I rely on just diffusion: I need convection to keep CO2 levels healthy, and a heater running inside the room provides sufficient convection (as does a fan pointed at the crack of the door).

There is one exception: when the air outside the room is hot enough (and here I guess I should mention that the door to this very small room basically opens to the outdoors) then the heater might not provide enough convection (and even if I could be assured that it did, it would make me too warm on very warm night). I.e., my system of running a heater and having the door open only a crack should not be relied on to keep CO2 levels low in very warm weather unless you want to do research I have not done (e.g., with a CO2 meter).

I should mention that this very small room is unusually airtight: even the round holes in the metal boxes inside the walls that contain the electrical outlets and light switches have been sealed. I mention this because it has made it easier for me to compare the effects of convection to the effects of diffusion because when there is only one opening (a door in my case) in an otherwise almost completely airtight room, the presence of a wind (and there is some wind or breeze most times in most places on earth) does not induce significant convection across the doorway.

I used to rely on an alarm clock to wake me up every 105 minutes to air the room (which takes 6 minutes on very cold nights and 10 minutes on the warmest nights). (When sleeping this way, the door is completely closed during the 105-minute intervals of sleep.) I no longer sleep this way because I've become less tolerant of having my sleep interrupted every 105 minutes. I mention this to underline the fact that I have plenty (decades) of experience with diffusion and convection in the context of CO2 and sleep.

(The 6 to 10 minutes of having the door wide open does not reliably reduce CO2 to levels indistinguishable from outdoor air, but I consider it good enough, and I wish to reduce the duration of the discomfort of lying in bed with the door wide open.)

Re: Ask HN: Best way to remove CO2 in a bedroom?

#77
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a window is one of the best options. Add a fan and it's hard to find something more optimal and cheap for this problem.

Also, don’t put the fan directly in the window, but a leave a small gap between the fan and the window to take advantage of Bernoulli’s principle

Do you have a good visual of what would be best here? I've been making sure my fan is as tightly sealed around the window as possible, but it'd be interesting to learn if there's a better solution.

Re: Ask HN: Best way to remove CO2 in a bedroom?

#78
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, don’t put the fan directly in the window, but a leave a small gap between the fan and the window to take advantage of Bernoulli’s principle

Do you have a good visual of what would be best here? I've been making sure my fan is as tightly sealed around the window as possible, but it'd be interesting to learn if there's a better solution.

This teacher helps visualize this concept pretty well

https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/ul8mt...

Re: Ask HN: Best way to remove CO2 in a bedroom?

#79

In the UK, 'trickle vents' are mandated in new build houses. They're little vents placed above external facing windows and doors that can be opened and somewhat closed. The goal is to allow moisture to escape to prevent mould but they also obviously allow constant airflow. They don't really allow bugs to get in either. video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_2SdLEbHcM

In the UK, trickle vents above windows and doors were historically used for passive ventilation to prevent mould by allowing airflow. However, modern building practices and regulations, including stringent air tightness requirements mandated by Building Control, have shifted focus towards more efficient ventilation solutions like Mechanical Ventilation with Heat Recovery (MVHR) systems. While trickle vents are still…

Possibly, my flat was built 3 years ago and has trickle vents all over.

Re: Ask HN: Best way to remove CO2 in a bedroom?

#80
post #65

There is no small scale human comparable in room CO2 removal bio/tech. Human breath will increase CO2 in a closed room on the order of many hundreds of ppm over hours, while even "superplants" like those in an Algen Air will decrease it at best on the order of low tens. We need improvements of two orders of magnitude to have room scale impact. So the only answer is "fresh" air ventilation.

"There is no small scale human comparable in room CO2 removal bio/tech." Of course the tech exists, it's just not common. Some submersible tech and space tech used rebreathers or scrubbers to remove CO2 and increase O2 levels. Of course the reason it's not common is that outside of those use cases you can generally just open a window.

Didn’t Apollo have scrubbers too?
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