Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests • Hacker News Board

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#91

Post by teeray » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 4:22 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #83

jellicle wrote: post #19

Sigh. You need both. The reality is that there's a lot of book-learning in the world. You're never going to build a rocket to the moon by starting in your backyard with some sheet metal - your lifespan isn't long enough if you take that approach. You have to read books written by people who have gone before, and learn from their mistakes, which you can do at a far more rapid pace than you can by making all those mist…

Most people aren't going to build rockets to the moon in their backyard and those who want to can. http://www.copenhagensuborbitals.com/ With regards to reading a passage and comprehend it. That is obvious but completely missing the point. We don't have a shortage of people with critical skills we have a shortage of people who's knowledge isn't only abstracted from the phenomena they are reading about but a combinati…

This also breeds a society that is increasingly willing to accept things at face value. Nobody asks if the correct answer on a multiple choice test is really correct. No one is allowed to justify their reasoning--they're wrong. After getting beaten down so many times, people just accept that things are the way they are. This is also the same reason that people can just memorize things for tests and parrot them back without a real understanding of anything.

Book learning is only valuable insofar as there is experience in the real world that it can be applied to. The sole reason I learned algebra and eventually calculus was because I taught myself very basic Java in 6th grade. I had a useful framework to apply the math to.

We need to remember that "if it disagrees with experiment, it is wrong." (Feynman) Not because the test says it's incorrect. It just may be that those two statements coincide, but it is because of the former.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#92

Post by gcheong » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 4:25 PM UTC

exDM69 wrote: post #46

krschultz wrote: post #13

'We walked into an empty room that once was the metal shop. It was perfect. I could imagine it having tools and materials and workbenches. I could imagine groups of curious kids being active, social, and mobile. ' When I was in 6th grade, they let us use a spot welder and press brake. I still have the box I made out of folded sheet metal from that time. We also had to make a little container out of folded sheet metal…

I, too, was fortunate to have woodworking, mig welding, electronics soldering, combustion engine repair and a little aircraft building as a part of my middle-high school education. I enjoyed it a lot and I learned a lot of stuff that I would have not learned by reading books and taking exams. But I guess American kids won't need any of that since everything is manufactured in China these days. You just need a lot of…

Manufactered in China, but designed and prototyped in the US. Which would you rather have your kids doing?

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#93

Post by sopooneo » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 4:26 PM UTC

hef19898 wrote: post #62

exDM69 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in a small cramped apartment, but I'd really like to do some wood works. So I bought some balsa wood and a few small tools to do some miniature models. It's not like doing real carpentry but will do until I get myself a shack to fit a band saw in.

Exactly. And since not everyone has the luxury of his private workshop, I really support that schools should provide that. I'm only affraid that in a world where 8 year olds are still forbidden to use real sicorrs you're gonna have a rough ride in order to do so...

I also live in a small place, but I want my child to have the experience of building and using tools. Fortunately, just a couple blocks from my home is perhaps the most wonderful place I have ever been in my life. http://artisansasylum.com/?page_id=1336

I have read about other similar places in New York, and I'm certain there must be stuff like this in the Bay Area. So if you're lucky enough to have something like this nearby, take advantage. I'm not sure what the kid policy is, but I'm really hoping they have or will create children's classes.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#94

Post by pitt1980 » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 4:26 PM UTC

larrys wrote: post #87

pitt1980 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

people say this because outside the mainstream thoughts do get downvoted alot on this board. which is maybe better than letting trolls take over, I'm kind of agnostic about it but alternative viewpoints are often dismissed here (only example I can readily think of http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3460572 , but I feel like I see it all the time)

I guess I phrased the question incorrectly as I know the reason is is to avoid downvotes and the person is aware of what they are saying will get downvoted. My feeling is that by saying "sorry if this is insulting" or "I apologize in advance" or "before you downvote me" you are rolling over on your belly and appearing vulnerable by acknowledging your vulnerability and trying to show some humility. And in a sense you…

its a rhetorical technique

whether its effective seems situational

"sorry if this is insulting" won't be effective if what you follow it with is truly insulting

we all know thin skinned people though, sometimes the best way to get them to hear a benign (or neutral, or even constructive critism) comment that they might dismiss is to procede it with "sorry if this is insulting"

so there are certain scenarios where I'd say those phrases are ok (this board with their sometimes quick downvoting, seems like an ok use to me)

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#95

Post by kbolino » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 4:33 PM UTC

gavinlynch wrote: post #76

kbolino wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are unwittingly peddling an insidious idea that may be just as bad, if not worse, than standardized testing. A "highly qualified education professional" is a disinterested drone whose only accomplishments were meeting the arcane state requirements for a teaching certificate. If you're really lucky, they might have been adept at stringing together a bunch of useless "research" conclusions into incoherent p…

I agree with you on the academia aspect, and it sounds like you are referring mostly to higher education, right? Or else, why would we want those from academia teaching our children in middle school and high school. "intelligence, patience, curiosity, and creativity" Are those really the qualities of a good teacher? In my mind, I don't really care of the teacher is curious or intelligent. I just want them to know how…

>>> it sounds like you are referring mostly to higher education, right?

Actually, no. The qualifications for becoming a professor are generally: doctoral degree in subject + publications to name. At least where I live, the requirements for becoming a teacher are generally: approved course of study (in education, not necessarily subject areas) + baccalaureate degree + teaching certificate.

>>> I just want them to know how to deliver information to my child in the most efficient way possible.

Then what you want is Google, or Wikipedia, or a good textbook. When, however, it comes time to teach your child how to find the information, how to assess it critically, how to reason about it, and how to use it effectively, then you need a teacher.

Also, teachers play the important role of exposing students to ideas and information that they would not otherwise be searching for, and thus to cultivate previously unknown interests and foster an appreciation for learning.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#96

Post by eragnew » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 4:35 PM UTC

After attending the Seattle Mini Maker Faire this past weekend, all I can say is that I agree 100% with OP. You internalize the lessons much more thoroughly when you actively (rather than passively) participate in the learning process.

The kids were the happiest people at the Faire, because they hadn't convinced themselves yet that they couldn't build these things. They were excited. It was great to see.

Pessimism is for suckers :)

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#97

Post by guelo » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 4:57 PM UTC

larrys wrote: post #52

jellicle wrote: post #19

Sigh. You need both. The reality is that there's a lot of book-learning in the world. You're never going to build a rocket to the moon by starting in your backyard with some sheet metal - your lifespan isn't long enough if you take that approach. You have to read books written by people who have gone before, and learn from their mistakes, which you can do at a far more rapid pace than you can by making all those mist…

"Before I get downvoted into oblivion" Why is it always necessarily to add this? It's like "I apologize in advance but I'm going to insult you". As an aside I was wondering this morning if people who down vote read an entire comment or downvote on the first negative thing they don't like, disagree with etc. If that is the case you would think that putting your last sentence (sans the bigdio) would suffice as a prophy…

I agree with you that the extra noise of the "downvote prophylactic" is annoying, however, I went ahead and downvoted your comment because the meta-complaining adds even more noise. I realize that my comment is meta-meta so feel free to downvote it also.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#98

Post by jarrett » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 5:00 PM UTC

gcheong wrote: post #92

exDM69 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, too, was fortunate to have woodworking, mig welding, electronics soldering, combustion engine repair and a little aircraft building as a part of my middle-high school education. I enjoyed it a lot and I learned a lot of stuff that I would have not learned by reading books and taking exams. But I guess American kids won't need any of that since everything is manufactured in China these days. You just need a lot of…

Manufactered in China, but designed and prototyped in the US. Which would you rather have your kids doing?

Exactly. And to design and prototype something, you need engineers who understand the tools and materials. You can't design a stamped metal part for a Chinese factory if you never learned about stamping metal.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#99

Post by exDM69 » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 5:08 PM UTC

gcheong wrote: post #92

exDM69 wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I, too, was fortunate to have woodworking, mig welding, electronics soldering, combustion engine repair and a little aircraft building as a part of my middle-high school education. I enjoyed it a lot and I learned a lot of stuff that I would have not learned by reading books and taking exams. But I guess American kids won't need any of that since everything is manufactured in China these days. You just need a lot of…

Manufactered in China, but designed and prototyped in the US. Which would you rather have your kids doing?

How long do you think the situation is sustainable?

I'd prefer my kids be proficient with power tools, computers and pen & paper, all of them are necessary.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#100

Post by scarface548 » Tue, Jun 05, 2012, 5:11 PM UTC

jellicle wrote: post #19

Sigh. You need both. The reality is that there's a lot of book-learning in the world. You're never going to build a rocket to the moon by starting in your backyard with some sheet metal - your lifespan isn't long enough if you take that approach. You have to read books written by people who have gone before, and learn from their mistakes, which you can do at a far more rapid pace than you can by making all those mist…

This is not about book reading. He is not saying kids should not read books.