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A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

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Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#91
post #87
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of refuting the flawed chinese room, the authors of those papers could have done something more productive instead. Like really working towards a real AI algorithm.

How can you possibly refute his argument intellectually without working towards a solution in some way? Knowing that it's not true now is an improvement to what was known then. By philosophizing against it, you gain a more concrete understanding of the problem and are, subsequently, closer to providing a solution.

He doesn't have an argument, in my opinion. There is nothing to refute. It is as if somebody was saying "look at this green spot, it is obviously red".

I guess the only way to "refute" it would be to create complete theory of human language and use it to prove that he isn't actually saying anything. But that doesn't seem very effective or promising as an undertaking to me.

Rephrased, maybe the problem with the chinese room is that it uses the fuzzy notion of consciousness, appealing to the vague emotions of it's audience rather than on logic. In so far as philosophy aims to clarify language, perhaps the chinese room could be useful as a bad example.

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) A "small" sample is often sufficient reason to accept a statement. If I tell you that there exists a Turing machine that can solve SAT in polynomial time, all I have to do to prove it is supply one (incidentally, if you have one lying around, let me know :P ). If I tell you that ALL of something is bad, then I have an uphill battle. But if I tell you SOME of something is bad, I only have to provide a single exampl…

Well, we seem to agree on some issues: Not all philosophy is bad or useless. Some might be. So, let's say "Some philosophy is useless." PG presents a few quotes and we may conclude, he proved his point. But did he present any useless philosophy or just badly written philosophy? Or does it just appear to be useless because we don't immediately understand it? The latter case basically boilds down to an argument from ig…

PG presented a definition of useless that set the bar too high; I (in another comment) presented a more reasonable definition of useless which accurately applies to most of philosophy--something is useful insofar as it answers questions asked by other fields (want empirical evidence of this? consider the number of references to philosophical papers on papers from other fields, excepting those related to cognitive science, which will, I believe, probably be the last field to split off of philosophy). There, thus, is no question of whether or not I understand a philosophical work; it's utility is measured by reference of other fields, regardless of my personal attitude upon reading the work. This definition accurately fits what is typically meant by the term useful, and meaningfully explains why, for example, an incomplete proof, or a result a given person doesn't understand might be useful.

That empiricism doesn't apply well to ethics is part of PG's point; he does not believe that the philosophy of ethics is useful. From my definition, I would say that the philosophy of ethics can conceivably be useful, but rarely is in practice.

In vague support of argument one, you might try turning your other argument on its head. Philosophy and science (and, before science, engineering and early health care) developed in parallel over the course of human history; one of them primarily studied abstract problems and tried to make them more useful, one of them studied uses, and worked toward abstraction. Until the 19th century, it appears that abstract study was better for developing new fields, and concrete study was better for development of technology. After the mid-19th century, philosophy lost its firm grip on most forms of abstract study, and became (for the most part) the field that it is today; now other fields tend to be the starting point for the spawning of new fields, and tend to be better for the development of technology.

With regard to your counter-example, I will continue to present my counter-counter-example: mathematics.

Your final sentence is nicely ironic. If, as you've said earlier, you need bad philosophy in order to determine what the good philosophy is, yet PG's work is useless, then PG's work must not be bad philosophy.

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#93

What a poor reply. Paul Graham's essay can easily be dismissed. Some examples: 1) Graham found philosophy not useful and didn't understand it. This is basically a sample size of 1. Is this a meaningful sample or just a confirmation bias (or suppressed evidence)? 2) Graham believes the early philosophers were encouraged by the progress in maths. But was there really much progress before Euclid's Elements, written arou…

"3) In hindsight, it's easy to say what's, for instance, the shortest way out of a labyrinth. But one needs to go many false routes to find out. Are these useless, ..."

I think the problem of philosophy has not been following some false routes. That is necessary and good as you point out. The problem has been that a lot of talent has been wasted going around in loops.

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#94
post #2

Claims philosophers do useful stuff but doesn't mention the best example: Karl Popper (who most philosophers don't like because he had the audacity to actually solve a philosophical problem!) Meanwhile, fails to distance himself from Wittgenstein, and responds to pg's claim that philosophers argue semantics by defending it! (BTW Popper is one of the philosopher who does not argue semantics.)

What philosophical problem did Popper actually solve? I hope very much you aren't referring to his verificationist approach to confirmation in science.

His approach was decidedly not verificationist, but falsificationist. I do share your sentiment that he didn't really solve the problem "once and for all." I think it's wrong to neglect the context of discovery. Peirce had some nice ideas about the logic of science.

Re: A Defense of Philosophy (against Paul Graham)

#95
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that slogging through Aristotle and Kant is incredibly painful (and many departments definitely over-emphasis), I think it's undeniably useful for one pursuing a career or even hobby in philosophy to have some knowledge of the discipline's history. If nothing else, it demonstrates exactly what not to do and how vital clarity and a rigorous, logical methodology are.

I just think that a succinct summary of their views by a clear modern writer would have been sufficient for my purposes. For others who are more interested, it's great to have.

The problem with this idea is that the jury is still out on the interpretation of a lot of ancient texts. Anyone summarizing them will either put their own spin on them or will tediously have to expound on all the possible interpretations.
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