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Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

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Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#41

Sigh. You need both. The reality is that there's a lot of book-learning in the world. You're never going to build a rocket to the moon by starting in your backyard with some sheet metal - your lifespan isn't long enough if you take that approach. You have to read books written by people who have gone before, and learn from their mistakes, which you can do at a far more rapid pace than you can by making all those mist…

I think it's necessary to draw a distinction between book-learning, standardized tests as a means to test book learning and the absolute focus on standardized tests that followed the NCLB Act.

Book learning is indeed essential. But standardized tests are far from a necessary component of that. They just happen to be the cheapest/least-offensive devil-we-know for judging whether a student comprehends a passage.

And the alternatives to standardized tests are far from a panacea. For all their desirable traits, they suffer heavily from problems of subjectivity and bias.

But the emphasis on standardized tests, particularly as a follow-on from NCLB is something the country really needs to re-examine and discuss. And this discussion should (ideally) be utterly divorced from whether we need book-learning and even from whether we need standardized tests in some capacity.

Complaints about NCLB and what it's done to our schools and students need not be an assault on testing and book learning. And defenses of testing and book learning need not be defenses of NCLB and its effects.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#42

Don't be silly--we won't be eliminating standardized tests any time soon. You can't easily produce huge reports full of meaningless charts or fluff up politicians' resumes with rockets and robots. Standardized tests produce orderly, easily measured numbers that make for lots of easy bean counting.

Don't forget - realtors love to sell houses in towns with high standardized test scores. Why they can't just show a map of median household income (which is a pretty good proxy for standardized test scores) is beyond me.

realtors love to sell houses in towns with high standardized test scores.

Note that this phoniness about living in one place being a guarantee of a child's school success is so ingrained among real estate agents that they still talk like that even in Minnesota, where there is statewide public school open enrollment, such that the school district where I live has students come in from FORTY-ONE other school districts' territories, including neighborhoods with radically different socioeconomic characteristics. Parents are always looking for some easy proxy for school quality. Power to shop here in Minnesota is helping somewhat in focusing parents' attention on what really matters. (For example, there are more and more school districts now that are adopting the Singapore Primary Mathematics series

http://www.singaporemath.com/Primary_Mathematics_US_Ed_s/39....

as elementary mathematics textbooks.)

What's really difficult today is finding out which schools offer genuine added value above what any child could get from an involved set of parents who value education. (This is why I homeschool, even in my apparently very desirable school district, which we live in for employment-based reasons irrespective of the school system.) The interesting article that you kindly submitted here makes the case that young people should do more in youth than what can boil down to answering pencil-and-paper questions on standardized tests, and I agree, and that is another reason we homeschool--to have time for more hands-on, constructive activities. But I will point out that is not an either-or forced choice, as several other comments have also pointed out to you. Indeed, sometimes open-ended projects favor children from wealthy families much more than student evaluation based on learning 3 R subjects that can be tested by standardized tests. The people in my generation in Taiwan were very proud of their standardized test system. When I first went over to Taiwan in 1982, several people pointed out to me that the president's son failed the college entrance exams--in other words, the examination system was above political corruption, fairly administered to all. It certainly served as a path to higher education for many young people who grew up in third-world poverty and had little by way of spare resources for doing projects with anything but school resources. (There IS project-based learning in all the schools of east Asia, contrary to the impression of many Americans, but rather than an either-or forced choice, those schools have a both-and of projects for all, and rigorous standardized tests for all.)

Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Make the tests relevant and well written, and accurately scored, and make the 3 R's learning in school efficient enough to allow time for challenging projects. And if the school is resistant to improvement, promote power to shop on the part of parents to nudge schools to do better, and meanwhile get your own children a good education however you can, even if it means that they learn outside school.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#43

Yes, they should be. It also would be nice if they had personalized attention of highly qualified education professionals, as well. But they don't. The unions, bureaucracy, politics, and funding is what it is.

I think you are unwittingly peddling an insidious idea that may be just as bad, if not worse, than standardized testing.

A "highly qualified education professional" is a disinterested drone whose only accomplishments were meeting the arcane state requirements for a teaching certificate. If you're really lucky, they might have been adept at stringing together a bunch of useless "research" conclusions into incoherent prose in order to impress an academic who hasn't taught in any meaningful sense for decades.

The qualities that make for a good teacher--intelligence, patience, curiosity, and creativity--are diametrically opposed to the qualities of a "highly qualified education professional."

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The writer's complaint is daft. The purpose is to test if you can read a passage and comprehend it. Has nothing to do with microscopes. From my understanding of cognitive science, the question asked is deeply flawed if you want to test comprehension without testing knowledge of microscopes. One approach to answering questions like this is to build a little model in your head of what is being described. You then answe…

It is a reading comprehension question. Read the text provided: "To avoid crushing the glass slide when focusing, begin with the lens close to the specimen" The microscope lens should initially be placed close to the glass slide: C. To avoid breaking the glass slide when adjusting the focus.

"The microscope lens should initially be placed close to the glass slide: C. To avoid breaking the glass slide when adjusting the focus."

Incidentally that statement only sense if you know which direction to turn the focus knob, and you recognize the fact that the hypothetical microscope is capable of crushing the specimen. I had one when I was a kid that was incapable of doing so.

I answered the question correctly, but it only due to my cynicism, not my reading comprehension.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The writer's complaint is daft. The purpose is to test if you can read a passage and comprehend it. Has nothing to do with microscopes. From my understanding of cognitive science, the question asked is deeply flawed if you want to test comprehension without testing knowledge of microscopes. One approach to answering questions like this is to build a little model in your head of what is being described. You then answe…

It is a reading comprehension question. Read the text provided: "To avoid crushing the glass slide when focusing, begin with the lens close to the specimen" The microscope lens should initially be placed close to the glass slide: C. To avoid breaking the glass slide when adjusting the focus.

I saw that too. It doesn’t change the fact that understanding of the domain strongly biases the result of answering the question. What you’re saying is that it is possible to answer the question while staring bewildered at a device you have never seen or interacted with. What I’m saying is that it is much easier to answer the question if you have hands-on experience.

And I think what the author is saying is that we should spend more time giving kids microscopes and testing what they see with them.

TANGENT ABOUT BIKE SHED COLOURS:

Questions like this remind me of questions about OOP. First the preamble: “Organize objects into classes to create a hierarchy of abstract types....” Then a question: “Classes are used to (a) provide a constructor for objects, (b) to promote reuse of behaviour, (c) to model a type hierarchy, (d) to facilitate modular software development.”

You ask someone to build a model in their head, and then the most successful strategy for answering the question is to turn the model off and use brute force to scan the exact words of the question, because the more knowledge you have of the domain, the less likely you are to answer the question correctly from your experience.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#46

'We walked into an empty room that once was the metal shop. It was perfect. I could imagine it having tools and materials and workbenches. I could imagine groups of curious kids being active, social, and mobile. ' When I was in 6th grade, they let us use a spot welder and press brake. I still have the box I made out of folded sheet metal from that time. We also had to make a little container out of folded sheet metal…

I, too, was fortunate to have woodworking, mig welding, electronics soldering, combustion engine repair and a little aircraft building as a part of my middle-high school education. I enjoyed it a lot and I learned a lot of stuff that I would have not learned by reading books and taking exams.

But I guess American kids won't need any of that since everything is manufactured in China these days. You just need a lot of lawyers to keep the Chinese from stealing your intellectual property.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#47
post #12

Sorry, but I thought that was a great question. If you have ever used a microscope before it's obvious and if you have not you can still figure it out in under 30 seconds of logical thought.

It's also explicitly stated in the fourth caution item. The author seems to be presenting the question as a boring context that students have to deal with, but there are plenty of tasks where some degree of self control is required to read and understand a few hundred words that aren't real exciting. To me, the big problem with testing is that it is not particularly adaptive. Students that demonstrate a reasonable le…

I agree, but assume standardized testing takes a full 2 days / year and you either do it every 4 years (3th, 9th, 11th) or every year. Well every year costs an extra 2 days on 3 / 4 years and assuming 180 school days a year that's (2*3/4)/180 = 0.83%.

So, yea it's probably not that useful, but if you want to get upset over something focus on the terrible quality of textbooks or something that can have a slightly larger impact. Even the school lunch program has a larger impact on student performance.

PS: Or just mandate that standardized testing does not count as part of the minimum required instruction time per year.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#48
My experience with my kids education (Oregon, 4th and 6th) is that there is some standardized testing but there's a ton of hands-on project work. In fact, I think there's maybe too little rigor and too many poster boards and research projects. They definitely learn how to develop ideas, research and present them, that's great.

An area that's underdeveloped is teaching to sift through available information and figure out what's signal and what's noise. I don't know if standard tests could help with that but encouraging close reading and deep thinking about very specific questions is definitely a worthy goal.

Re: Kids should be building rockets and robots, not taking standardized tests

#49
post #20
post #11

I don't like false dichotomies like this. Why can't kids learn to do both well? Standardized tests are akin to FizzBuzz for college entrance. If you can't get 500/800 in the Math SATs, you will not be able to keep up in STEM majors with others who scored 700+. Given the real constraint of limited resources, you have to implement barriers to entry. Standardized tests are not perfect but they serve well. Of course, mak…

Agreed! The situation is similar to professional organizations like ACM and IEEE who act as gatekeeper and moneymaker for academic journals, which make people angry (justifiably so). It's a bad solution, but you need some form of reputation management. You can't have kids who want to enroll to MIT line up in a stadium and have them build metal boxes, or write code. However, you can use these as additional input to th…

Agreed. And in Malaysia, the mostly the only way to obtain that score is brute memorization of facts.
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