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FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

nytimes.com

151–160 of 267 posts

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#151
post #101

The headline is spun. The text of the article doesn't allege "counterfeit titanium", only that the paperwork chain contains (according I guess to an audit done internally at Spirit) counterfeit documents . What that says about the metal itself is unknown. It seems more likely to me to be legitimate but stolen titanium than it does to be fake material. It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. Nothi…

It's likely laundered through China from Russia bypass avoid sanctions.

Titanium is mostly not on the sanctioned list. In a few countries where is sanctioned (like Canada), exemptions are available.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is clearly the case. The phrase "counterfeit titanium" doesn't even make sense, because something counterfeit has the wrong provenance, and the provenance of an alloy or element isn't a meaningful property. You could say "counterfeit Krugerrands", but "counterfeit gold" doesn't make sense. Now, it could be ersatz titanium, except that the article specifically says that it isn't: > Spirit added that “more th…

> Russian titanium, which is produced in such quantity Russia is what, third on the list of countries by titanium production? [0] Japan produces more. China produces quite a lot more. It should not be -that- hard to avoid using Russian titanium. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_production_by_country

There is a general shortage of titanium. It would be hard.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#153
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's not really feasible to fake something like a raw metal. No one is trying to pass aluminum or steel as titanium. It's pretty straightforward to pass one titanium alloy as another, or claim provenance or material properties it doesn't have. I have two indistinguishable scrap pieces on my desk right now, one Grade 5 and one Grade 2. It's also possible to pass a billet or sheet of alloy with defects or poor quality…

> It's pretty straightforward to pass one titanium alloy as another, Sure, but per my actual point: characterizing the wrong alloy as "counterfeit titanium" is misleading, no? If I hand you a nickel when you expected a quarter, did I give you "counterfeit money"? No, I gave you the wrong thing. Cheating on material provenance is fraud. It's not "counterfeiting", and for a journalist to claim so is misleading spin. A…

Spirit believed it was buying a specific, certified titanium alloy.

Imagine the rabbis at Hebrew National were out sick, but Hebrew National continued churning out “Kosher hotdogs” that hadn’t been properly vetted.

Sure it’s still a hotdog made with kosher ingredients. But it’s a major violation of trust. And trust is what consumers expect when flying.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#154

> Spirit added that “more than 1,000 tests have been completed to confirm the mechanical and metallurgical properties of the affected material to ensure continued airworthiness.” So basically, has nothing to do with safety? Is this simply Uncle Sam is mad he couldn't take a dip of the proceeds?

"I'm selling croissants." Gives you Haggis. "Well it's all food so what's the big deal, stop regulating me."

That doesn't describe this case at all though? It's more like you got your croissants but without a name brand or receipt.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#155
post #103
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to most reporting, Spirit removed, then failed to re-install the door. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/boeing-loose-bolts-alaska-airli...

Yes, but to be fair the reporting is incomplete because the Boeing-maintained records of the maintenance were incomplete in seemingly-deliberate ways. So... we just don't know. At least one, plausibly two bad guys there.

As far as I can make out, Spirit employees (probably with the knowledge and tacit approval of management, because that's the way these things usually go) found a loophole in the record system that allowed them to avoid triggering QA checks. Boeing has blame for creating a system with such a loophole, or failing to find it before it was used, but it was Spirit personnel who actually used it.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#156

The FAA has their hands full investigating problems _after_ they become problems. Are airplanes in a race to the bottom or is there an opportunity to inject quality and reliability into this industry?

> FAA has their hands full investigating problems _after_ they become problems The FAA is constantly auditing, certifying and testing airmen, airplanes and plants. They have their hands full. But it's totally incorrect to say they're an ex post facto investigations agency.

> The FAA is constantly auditing, certifying and testing airmen, airplanes and plants.

Are they?

Much of the work that would be done to inspect and certify the planes being manufactured was outsourced to the manufacturers to increase efficiency.

They build their planes, inspect their planes, inspect and approve modifications and major repairs to their planes, and issue their own airworthiness certificates for their planes.

For a long while, the FAA was barely even involved in rubber stamping whoever Boeing et al appointed as FAA inspectors at their plants, never mind inspecting and certifying the planes themselves—in 2016 the Transportation Department said more than 85% of the tasks associated with certification were delegated from the FAA to the manufacturer’s own inspectors. By 2018, the FAA said that Boeing was handling 96% of the certification process.

There were some reforms around 2021 (737 MAX crashes were 2018 and 2019), but they were mostly focused on improving the self inspection program, not solving the fundamental problem of having companies certify their own work.

> But it's totally incorrect to say they're an ex post facto investigations agency.

While the inspections and certifications have been delegated by the FAA and _technically_ are still done in the name of the FAA, the reality certainly looks much more like the FAA proper is only involved _after_ significant safety issues.

I really don’t think it’s quite as clear cut as you make it out to be.

Re: FAA investigating how counterfeit titanium got into Boeing and Airbus jets

#159

The FAA has their hands full investigating problems _after_ they become problems. Are airplanes in a race to the bottom or is there an opportunity to inject quality and reliability into this industry?

The airlines moved maintenance overseas a few years ago, which make it harder for the FAA to inspect.

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2015/11/airplane-maintenance...

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