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Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#141

Post by Zanfa »

tjansen wrote: post #32

Not sure about other regions, but in the EU, low tech cars are not allowed. Required safety systems include emergency breaking, emergency lane-keeping, intelligent speed assistance (car must use cameras or GPS to determine current speed limit), driver attention warning systems and many more. That fancy screen is really not a cost factor. These days you can buy after-market screens with Car Play and Android auto suppo…

> These days you can buy after-market screens with Car Play and Android auto support for 100 EURs or less.

Wish this was true. I wanted to buy one for myself, but even the most expensive aftermarket CarPlay units are absolutely terrible. Laggy & unresponsive touch screens, underpowered internals, gaudy designs etc.

I wonder why it’s still such a challenge to make something that feels as good as a first gen iPad from 2010.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#142

Post by muzani »

2rsf wrote: post #8
muzani wrote: post #4

Ora, BYD, Neta. Maybe Chinese cars aren't popular there?

Are they low-tech? at least BYD presents all the known tech, bells and whistles for a lower price.

What's the definition of low tech? Golf carts? Cars without a screen seem about as rare as phones without a camera.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#143

Post by dpeckett »

defrost wrote: post #127
sircastor wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> By "we" I'm guessing you mean the tariff protected domestic north american and european markets. Yes, I apologize for the western-centric approach there, though I would extend that position to the UAE and Saudi-Arabia. The NA OEMs are not interested in bringing very low-cost vehicles to market. And the low-cost OEMs from Europe haven’t really been able to reach the American market. aside from a very outlier product…

No drama. Odd aside, these days "low tech" (minimal effort, low cost) cars are going to have screens and control by wire interfaces for many things - it's 2024 and touch screens are a throw away disposable item compared to physical controls, tension cables, routing looms for every physical switch and interface light bulb, etc. In a sense the ideal notion of a "low tech car" is now a hand crafted artisan object.

Exactly this whole discussion hinges on the idea that modern vehicle interfaces are somehow "fancy". Touchscreens, ARM boards running Linux, CMOS camera sensors, and drive-by-wire (heck Tesla is even adopting Ethernet) are totally commoditized. They were fancy 30 years ago, but today they are the boring cheap option.

It's pure nostalgia.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#144

Post by defrost »

dpeckett wrote: post #143
defrost wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No drama. Odd aside, these days "low tech" (minimal effort, low cost) cars are going to have screens and control by wire interfaces for many things - it's 2024 and touch screens are a throw away disposable item compared to physical controls, tension cables, routing looms for every physical switch and interface light bulb, etc. In a sense the ideal notion of a "low tech car" is now a hand crafted artisan object.

Exactly this whole discussion hinges on the idea that modern vehicle interfaces are somehow "fancy". Touchscreens, ARM boards running Linux, CMOS camera sensors, and drive-by-wire (heck Tesla is even adopting Ethernet) are totally commoditized. They were fancy 30 years ago, but today they are the boring cheap option. It's pure nostalgia.

The nostalgia is understandably for fully user transparent, user controlled, "home" repairable cars .. which is understandable and a goal I'd like to see in EV's.

Open source code, no phone home or hidden backdoors, optionally no wireless or external connectivity other than by on board physical port, etc.

Cars of yore have car manuals, manifolds and heads can be replaced with official parts or scrap yard parts or third party vendor alternatives, etc.

I use EV's for work related applications, I'm still holding off a personal EV until I can find something in Australia that fits my list. Until then I do most local area travel via walking, electric scooter, or homebuilt EV trike with basket for shopping - there's a Land Cruiser for the rural trips and hauling loads but that's more a once per week driver.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#146

Post by bmoxb »

bitwize wrote: post #112
ofrzeta wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, so called "Vision Zero": "The EU’s long-term goal is to move as close as possible to zero fatalities in road transport by 2050" https://cinea.ec.europa.eu/publications/eu-road-safety-towar...

It's a good start, but a grander vision would be to reduce or eliminate the need for cars altogether. You can build and sustain a mighty civilization without automobiles at all . Per Poi Dog Pondering: Well the ancient Egyptians and the other Africans The Mayans, the Incas, and all the Polynesians All around the world, a long long time ago People would walk wherever they had to go

Agreed. Electric cars are frankly a pretty poor solution to the issue of carbon emissions. A far better, more long term solution already exists - high density, walkable neighbourhoods and high frequency, well run public transport systems.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#147

Post by shiroiushi »

nottorp wrote: post #53
edent wrote: post #19

Citroën Ami is about as low tech as you can get. If you want something more car-shaped, the Renault Zoe has very few tech feature. Similarly, Kia Soul has a reversing camera… and that's about it! No radar, lane assist, carplay or anything like that. Cstomers only want 3 things. A comfortable ride, a safe journey, and $thing. The problem is, everyone's one more thing is different. I want DAB radio, you want cruise con…

> Similarly, Kia Soul has a reversing camera… and that's about it! And the reversing camera is necessary because modern cars have tiny submarine like windows.

They have terrible rear visibility because modern crash standards (and the laws of physics) require that. 80s cars had much better rear visibility, but the roofs would easily flatten and those cars were generally deathtraps for any kind of crash. Modern cars handle crashes much better with stronger roof pillars and a high "beltline" (the line between the metal parts of the doors and the windows) and side-impact protection beams in the doors, but that comes at the cost of visibility.

Luckily, modern technology solves this, and more, if you get the backup camera (now legally required in US) and the rear blind-spot-detection radar. Visibility with those is much better than it was in the old days, as long as you know how to use them. However, they do all come at a cost, especially the blind-spot radars.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#148

Post by shiroiushi »

ulfw wrote: post #135
edent wrote: post #19

Citroën Ami is about as low tech as you can get. If you want something more car-shaped, the Renault Zoe has very few tech feature. Similarly, Kia Soul has a reversing camera… and that's about it! No radar, lane assist, carplay or anything like that. Cstomers only want 3 things. A comfortable ride, a safe journey, and $thing. The problem is, everyone's one more thing is different. I want DAB radio, you want cruise con…

Erm, have you ever seen a German car? Pick any Audi, Mercedes, BMW and god forbid a Porsche and you'll have an options catalogue of epic proportions. Different SKUs is an absolute non-issue in the car industry when it comes to tech gizmos and other optional extras. You want different suspension? No biggie. Manual vs automatic? Sure. Different kind of entertainment system? Of course. Different (branded) speakers? Yup.…

It can be done, but at a high cost. None of those cars you listed are inexpensive by any means.

By contrast, budget-friendly Japanese cars don't have options like this; you get maybe 3 option packages to choose from and that's it. Manufacturing is much simpler and gets better economies of scale when everyone gets the same thing.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#149

Post by shiroiushi »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #68
JohnFen wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The big reason screens matter for electric cars is planning long range trips with stops at a battery charge location. But that doesn't explain why automakers are moving the regular controls from physical buttons to the touchscreen. That's the part that I consider a serious problem.

Buttons are surprisingly expensive; not just the button itself but the wiring and the labor. Let's WAG at $20 per button. $20 * a few dozen buttons is real money.

No, buttons are not that expensive, that's silly. Cars have had buttons for ages, and they certainly weren't more expensive decades ago.

The big reason touchscreens are so favored is because they don't require that you finalize your user-interface design decisions so early in the design cycle. With physical buttons, you have to design molds etc. to have the parts ready for final assembly. What if you want to make a change? Whereas with a touchscreen UI, you can worry about UI details any time and just make changes in software, even after the car has been sold if necessary. So for the early design process, you just specify the size screen you want, and design the molds for the bezels etc.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#150

Post by shiroiushi »

zem wrote: post #134
JohnFen wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe, maybe not. If you posed it to customers in that way, many would object. If you didn't, then a $1000 price increase wouldn't really be noticed. But it doesn't matter how many are willing. All I'm saying is that this is a thing that matters a great deal to me. It's pretty close to a dealbreaker. Even if I'm the only one that feels that way, it's still how I feel. The auto industry appears to not want to make car…

> But I do find it interesting that one of the things that I was always taught was a strength of our economic system is that it will produce a wide enough variety of goods that pretty much everyone will find a version of a product that they'd actually want. That it appears that it can't looks like a kind of failure to me. heck, finding a sub-6" cellphone is next to impossible, outright impossible if you want high end…

The populations in developed nations are generally getting older, and people are living longer. Older people have bad eyesight for close-up things, so large-screen smartphones make a lot of sense.
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