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European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

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Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#21

Post by Georgelemental »

jameshart wrote: post #6

The obligation on content platforms is not to allow any legally permissible message to be posted . It is to prevent any legally impermissible message from being posted . Moreover, as a business, just because something’s theoretically legal, if it exposes you to a nonzero risk of being prosecuted - even if you are pretty sure you will prevail - you’re well within your rights to elect not to be the vehicle through whic…

If the government is passing laws that strongly incentivize censoring speech they don't like, then the government is engaging in unjust censorship, even if "officially" the speech in question remains legal. And it's our business as citizens when our governments act in a tyrannical manner.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#22

Post by fallingknife »

interactivecode wrote: post #14
fallingknife wrote: post #9

Just to note some speech that has been considered illegal in Europe: - calling Muhammad a pedophile - convicted of blasphemy (JFC!) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.S._v._Austria_(2018) - posting the government's own crime statistics - convicted of inciting hate https://europeanconservative.com/articles/news/afd-politicia... - a video of a dog doing a Hitler salute - hate crime https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-gla…

Why are you so worried about freedom of speech when you haven’t even separated state and religion? Also, Freedom of speech doesn’t mean acceptance of hate. Im glad that content and people who encourage racism are removed.

You are the ones that have blasphemy laws, so I find it hilarious that you are complaining that we haven't separated church and state.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#23

Post by recursivecaveat »

Georgelemental wrote: post #19
technobach wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that 99% of the removed comments were legal, it doesn't seem like it's the governments that are restricting what people are seeing.

Something doesn't have to be "officially" illegal for laws to suppress it. If the law gives no penalty for a false-positive block, but very high penalties for any false-negative failure to censor, then companies will be incentivized to err on the side of censoring legal speech.

I don't disagree about the risk of chilling effects, but the methodology of this report is so embarrassingly, deceptively bad that I don't think any conclusion can be drawn from it. They basically snapshot a comment section, then return repeatedly, and enumerate the comments that disappeared. Without any insight into who (ie the platform, the poster, or the channel/page owner) removed the comment and why, this is like performing a legal analysis of the leaves that disappeared from lawns in autumn.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#24

Post by technobach »

Georgelemental wrote: post #19
technobach wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that 99% of the removed comments were legal, it doesn't seem like it's the governments that are restricting what people are seeing.

Something doesn't have to be "officially" illegal for laws to suppress it. If the law gives no penalty for a false-positive block, but very high penalties for any false-negative failure to censor, then companies will be incentivized to err on the side of censoring legal speech.

Yes, that's the primary complaint of the article, but the actual report just doesn't back that up. There's no mention of false positives or negatives. Probably because, as the report notes, it doesn't know who removed the comment, let alone what the rationale was. So it could be that they are attempting to comply with broad and vague laws, or they could just be against hosting MLP memes.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#25

Post by brnt »

squigz wrote: post #16
charbroiled wrote: post #11

> Of the deleted comments examined across platforms and countries, between 87.5% and 99.7%, depending on the sample, were legally permissible. Even of the content that’s not “legally permissible,” it’s worth questioning what exactly is not permitted. It was mere months ago that the EU threatened YouTube for hosting “incitement to violence or propaganda for terrorist organizations”—a lot of which was actual real foota…

On the topic of such videos, I do feel like more people need to view these things. Not casually, or as entertainment, but to get a glimpse of what these events are actually like. I watched the Christchurch shooting, and seeing the callousness of it all... I don't know, it changes you.

The problem is that people understand things differently. What is a valuable lesson for you, can be an inspiration for others. This is actually quite well researched so you can't just keep such violent materials accessible to all and not know you are helping some radicalise.

Why not store such things in archives accessible to researchers with a articulated and plausible research questions?

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#26

Post by squigz »

brnt wrote: post #25
squigz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the topic of such videos, I do feel like more people need to view these things. Not casually, or as entertainment, but to get a glimpse of what these events are actually like. I watched the Christchurch shooting, and seeing the callousness of it all... I don't know, it changes you.

The problem is that people understand things differently. What is a valuable lesson for you, can be an inspiration for others. This is actually quite well researched so you can't just keep such violent materials accessible to all and not know you are helping some radicalise. Why not store such things in archives accessible to researchers with a articulated and plausible research questions?

Can you link to that research?

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#27

Post by raxxorraxor »

brnt wrote: post #25
squigz wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the topic of such videos, I do feel like more people need to view these things. Not casually, or as entertainment, but to get a glimpse of what these events are actually like. I watched the Christchurch shooting, and seeing the callousness of it all... I don't know, it changes you.

The problem is that people understand things differently. What is a valuable lesson for you, can be an inspiration for others. This is actually quite well researched so you can't just keep such violent materials accessible to all and not know you are helping some radicalise. Why not store such things in archives accessible to researchers with a articulated and plausible research questions?

I would believe that this research is as sound as research for violence in movies or games.

This is different, these were events in real life. But the "studies" are certainly not conclusive. It is the "stochastic terrorism" argument, which is trivial and very likely wrong.

And it can serve as a (bad) argument to remove any and all content. There is not place for it in democracies.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#28

Post by raxxorraxor »

moomin wrote: post #7

I guarantee you that if I started filling every HackerNews thread with My Little Pony memes, every “Free Speech Absolutist” would manage to grasp the point that sometimes you want to remove legal content.

This isn't the argument of "free speech absolutists" at all. I gladly take up that derogative term for that matter.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#29

Post by raxxorraxor »

recursivecaveat wrote: post #23
Georgelemental wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something doesn't have to be "officially" illegal for laws to suppress it. If the law gives no penalty for a false-positive block, but very high penalties for any false-negative failure to censor, then companies will be incentivized to err on the side of censoring legal speech.

I don't disagree about the risk of chilling effects, but the methodology of this report is so embarrassingly, deceptively bad that I don't think any conclusion can be drawn from it. They basically snapshot a comment section, then return repeatedly, and enumerate the comments that disappeared. Without any insight into who (ie the platform, the poster, or the channel/page owner) removed the comment and why, this is lik…

It has the same quality of any research or report that suggest there to be negative effects if people do see such content.

And if in doubt, content removal should be done defensively.

Re: European content removal laws are scrubbing the internet of legal content

#30

Post by raxxorraxor »

interactivecode wrote: post #13
DEADMINCE wrote: post #8

European content removal laws don't apply outside of Europe which means they don't apply to the internet, only a 'version' of the internet. If you live in a country that doesn't let you access the 'true' internet, you don't live in a free country.

If you live in a country that doesn’t protect you. It’s not a country, it’s just a government sized HOA.

I am not protected by content removals, on the contrary, I become a prisoner of a fake information channel.
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