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Can LLMs invent better ways to train LLMs?

sakana.ai

31–39 of 39 posts

Re: Can LLMs invent better ways to train LLMs?

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are inventions other than combinations of existing patterns? What is the human mind if not a computer? What is the universe if not repeated regurgitations of the four fundamental forces and 12 particles?

I guess the key aspect for human inventions is a stochastic element to the combination of existing pattern. I.e. seeing (or imagining) connections that are not obvious.

LLM responses seem pretty stochastic to me

Re: Can LLMs invent better ways to train LLMs?

#32
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are inventions other than combinations of existing patterns? What is the human mind if not a computer? What is the universe if not repeated regurgitations of the four fundamental forces and 12 particles?

> What are inventions other than combinations of existing patterns? Well criticized combinations of existing patterns > What is the human mind if not a computer A computer with important modules installed > What is the universe if not repeated regurgitations of the four fundamental forces and 12 particles Repeated regurgitations which have already produced working structures

Yes, having the right modules installed is important.

Re: Can LLMs invent better ways to train LLMs?

#33
post #4
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll need the following law too, No clickbaity article is worth reading.

Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. (From the guidelines)

I like the idea of respect where this comes from, but I think that titles have been perverted by SEO way too much and at some point I need writers to stop trying to lure me for my own good.

I wish we can get descriptive, boring, but accurate titles back.

Re: Can LLMs invent better ways to train LLMs?

#34
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is it possible for copilot or say llama or gpt4o to suggest a piece of code and actually go and try to run a test that they design on an ide and see if there are any results and try to fix issues? right now you ask llm to write a code to do basic web scraping for HN website for latest url and give username of the submitter. sure they will give you a code and give you a test script but you as the user have to run the…

Genetic Programming was a thing in the 90s but hampered by a combination of the inefficiency of largely random mutations (plus some crossover, which was still largely undirected) with low odds of doing anything helpful, and lack of computational speed to test. A GP framework attempting to use LLMs to apply more or less "reasoned" changes within the same structure of generations of "mutations" tested against each othe…

They key bit here is there is no known way (as yet) to encode "reasoning".

I was a big fan of genetic programming, wrote a lot of code, did lots of research. And unlike LLMs it could end up on code that had never been written before that accomplished some task, but the random walk through a galactic sized space with atom (or maybe molecule) sized solution spaces made it computationally infeasible.

Being able to somehow code 'reasoning' one could do the equivalent of gradient descent to converge on a working solution but without that, you are unlikely[1] to find anything in reasonable amounts of time.

[1] The chance is non-zero but it is very very near zero.

Re: Can LLMs invent better ways to train LLMs?

#36
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genetic Programming was a thing in the 90s but hampered by a combination of the inefficiency of largely random mutations (plus some crossover, which was still largely undirected) with low odds of doing anything helpful, and lack of computational speed to test. A GP framework attempting to use LLMs to apply more or less "reasoned" changes within the same structure of generations of "mutations" tested against each othe…

They key bit here is there is no known way (as yet) to encode "reasoning". I was a big fan of genetic programming, wrote a lot of code, did lots of research. And unlike LLMs it could end up on code that had never been written before that accomplished some task, but the random walk through a galactic sized space with atom (or maybe molecule) sized solution spaces made it computationally infeasible. Being able to someh…

LLMs can definitely end up with code that has never been written before, even before considering that you would be able both to ask it for modifications to very constrained parts of the code and can sample more broadly than always picking the most probably tokens.

But it also appear to have a far higher probability of producing changes that move towards something that will run.

Re: Can LLMs invent better ways to train LLMs?

#38
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something. (From the guidelines)

I like the idea of respect where this comes from, but I think that titles have been perverted by SEO way too much and at some point I need writers to stop trying to lure me for my own good. I wish we can get descriptive, boring, but accurate titles back.

Descriptive titles have their place, but so do titles that arouse curiousity and need you to read TFA.

Re: Can LLMs invent better ways to train LLMs?

#39
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can LLMs invent anything Can they propose a working novelty: -- after deep thought about idea soundness, probably not at this stage -- through cycles of trials, not knowing exactly why - probably yes After all, your hammer needs not intelligence.

But my hammer is totally useless without me as a human using it and telling it exactly what to do.

Yes, exactly. Tools perform without "knowing" the purpose. Unintelligent yet effective.

So, "perform a selection over the enumerated combinations in the solutions space" works without the process being further sophisticated. It works as much as it can - as a preparation of data until the stage in which intelligence is required.

We have been doing it since a while; simulated annealing, genetic algorithms... Dumb hammers in a way, encoding an action from an intelligent operator, and providing an effective aid when under intelligent control.

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