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Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

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Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#31
So the unit economics of electric cars are quite different from gas cars (ICE = internal combustion). Electric car companies don't make money on low cost cars -- and neither can ICE cars!

Basic ICE cars are essentially sold at cost, sometimes as loss leaders, because the manufacturers make a long-tail of money supplying parts and maintenance for the cars over their lifetime; for 10-20 years they now have a (variable) recurring revenue stream. So a lot of automakers' incentives are to get as large of a fleet as possible.

Electric cars inherently have much less of a maintenance burden because there are way fewer moving parts in a motor versus an engine. For example, there's no oil changes ever 3k miles or timing belts to replace ever 30k miles.

That means, for electric car companies, business model options are

a) introduce SaaS subscriptions for electronic features (a - la Tesla Autopilot premium, supercharger network subscriptions)

b) introduce unnecessary complexity to increase maintenance revenue (gullwing doors)

c) sell at a profit margin off the factory. Can have higher margins and higher total profit for luxury cars versus basic cars

And Tesla's recent push towards robotaxis of their existing fleet would be a totally killer disruption of the unit economics by generating recurring revenue off their fleet.

So all the incentives for electric cars point towards high tech luxury, not basic eco-cars. There may be an exception to the rule in some countries, and those may be related to government subsidies.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#32
Not sure about other regions, but in the EU, low tech cars are not allowed.

Required safety systems include emergency breaking, emergency lane-keeping, intelligent speed assistance (car must use cameras or GPS to determine current speed limit), driver attention warning systems and many more.

That fancy screen is really not a cost factor. These days you can buy after-market screens with Car Play and Android auto support for 100 EURs or less. But all the safety systems needs lots of sensors, and also the ability to auto-brake and auto-steer in emergency situations.

https://bmdv.bund.de/SharedDocs/EN/Articles/StV/Roadtraffic/...

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#34
This is exact same topic I was wondering. Frame + electric motor + battery + gamepad + cpu.

From my research, it's boils down to:

1. Car is still a wealth marker. Not enough people think about it just as a means of transpiration. If they do they mostly use public transport or uber/escooters.

2. Car frame - you need to meet security standards, it cost a lot

3. Battery - current technology is expensive

4. Car lobby - especially in Europe, there are large tariffs to bring EV cars from Asia.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#35
post #19

Citroën Ami is about as low tech as you can get. If you want something more car-shaped, the Renault Zoe has very few tech feature. Similarly, Kia Soul has a reversing camera… and that's about it! No radar, lane assist, carplay or anything like that. Cstomers only want 3 things. A comfortable ride, a safe journey, and $thing. The problem is, everyone's one more thing is different. I want DAB radio, you want cruise con…

Wouldn't it be fun if electric cars were the same way as PC's. Plug and play the parts you want, switch motor / battery.. choose a new chassis as you wish. And LED lights of course.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#36
post #19

Citroën Ami is about as low tech as you can get. If you want something more car-shaped, the Renault Zoe has very few tech feature. Similarly, Kia Soul has a reversing camera… and that's about it! No radar, lane assist, carplay or anything like that. Cstomers only want 3 things. A comfortable ride, a safe journey, and $thing. The problem is, everyone's one more thing is different. I want DAB radio, you want cruise con…

Yes, if you want to go low-tech, Renault (and Dacia) is a good option.

Before recent legislative troubles (lol), France was also working on a law that would give consumer unions (think iFixit but with publicly available finance) the right to give "repairability indexes" on multiple products, including cars, that would have to be presented to the buyer, even second-hand buyers.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#37
post #19

Citroën Ami is about as low tech as you can get. If you want something more car-shaped, the Renault Zoe has very few tech feature. Similarly, Kia Soul has a reversing camera… and that's about it! No radar, lane assist, carplay or anything like that. Cstomers only want 3 things. A comfortable ride, a safe journey, and $thing. The problem is, everyone's one more thing is different. I want DAB radio, you want cruise con…

Wouldn't it be fun if electric cars were the same way as PC's. Plug and play the parts you want, switch motor / battery.. choose a new chassis as you wish. And LED lights of course.

Man I can dream! That sounds incredible.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#38
post #19

Citroën Ami is about as low tech as you can get. If you want something more car-shaped, the Renault Zoe has very few tech feature. Similarly, Kia Soul has a reversing camera… and that's about it! No radar, lane assist, carplay or anything like that. Cstomers only want 3 things. A comfortable ride, a safe journey, and $thing. The problem is, everyone's one more thing is different. I want DAB radio, you want cruise con…

> Cstomers only want 3 things. A comfortable ride, a safe journey, and $thing. The problem is, everyone's one more thing is different. I want DAB radio, you want cruise control, she wants lane assist, he wants automatic parking.

This is the correct answer. And on top of this, new cars also compete with used cars. The very few people who don’t want any $thing are often not picky buyers and are more likely to just buy a cheaper used car. They wouldn’t be a buyer even if automakers did build a car for them.

Re: Ask HN: Why is nobody manufacturing low tech electric cars in 2024?

#39
post #3

The really difficult and expensive part is manufacturing decent cars, at scale. The profit margins on that part generally suck - so Capitalism says "hahaha...NO". The pretty-easy-and-cheap part is adding glitzy screens to cars. Doing that gets most people all excited...and willing to shell out far more money. In an extremely well-run socialist country, there'd probably be good, low-tech electric cars.

The car industry has an unusual profit curve. They have huge, huge fixed costs. It's not just the factory, it's the testing, compliance, marketing, etc.

However, the price you pay for a car is substantially more than the marginal cost of producing it.

So that industry is a famine-or-feast industry. Either they are losing money in mind-boggling quantities, or they are making money in mind-boggling quantities. There is not a lot of in between.

Unfortunately, the connection to the question the original poster asked is that they basically can't risk not selling a car because it doesn't have some hot feature that most of the market wants, so you won't see a screen-free car made today. Putting $100 of hardware in to seal the deal is a no-brainer in their profit model. (Though they will trim every penny on it, as they do everything else; it may seem like a contradiction but if you think about it enough it'll make sense. Consider the term "bullet-point feature" in our industry.) Until the market as a whole screams for it, it won't exist.

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