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Let's get a little louder

juliaelman.com

111–120 of 149 posts

Re: Let's get a little louder

#111
post #82
post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry to go all patriarchy here, but the little Schneier on my shoulder just explained to me how to get anyone's talk cancelled at a conference that institutes this sort of policy. I'm not sure that's a workable fix, either. This is sort of a hard problem.

Judging from the organizer's response there was little doubt concerning the validity of her claims in this case though. In other cases, pulling said person into a room, asking him if the claims are true and if so asking them to leave is already a big step forward.

It seems like you assume everyone to be honest.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Original quote: > "the conference organizers should not have blinked before ejecting the responsible party from the conference." Shoot first, ask questions later? This is a problem, and not a world I want my wife or children to be part of, that simple.

That's one way to interpret that, but not the only way. You shouldn't complain about someone potentially rushing to judgment at the same time you're rushing to judgment.

Oh, I see. You're interested in having an argument about the semantics of a straight forward sentence.

>"the conference organizers should not have blinked before ejecting the responsible party from the conference."

Not much to "interpret" there. I've been wrong before, but I'll bet he meant exactly what he said; this individual should have been removed from the conference immediately. That's all well and good for a discussion on an internet message board, but in reality it could be extremely harmful to reputations, both of the accused and the conference.

Now, if jnoller meant what you are implying he meant, he could have easily written:

the conference organizers should not have blinked before [taking action/investigating/speaking with/questioning etc] the [accused] party.

or even:

the conference organizers should have investigated, then not have blinked before ejecting the responsible party from the conference if determined to be guilty.

And that's something I could support. I think the conference representative's reaction to such a major accusation was reprehensible. But that isn't what he wrote. And I really don't think that's what he meant, either. Note the language. Responsible? At what point was that determined?

And by the way: jumping to conclusions about a sexual harassment charge is dangerous, and not at all analogous to doing the same with regards to a sentence on HackerNews.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#113
post #110
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I perfectly understand how bars work. Like you say, it's totally possible nobody at the bar knew this woman was being harassed. Especially if this guy has plenty of experience being a creep and has gotten good at doing without attracting attention. What I'm saying, though, is that the people around them at the bar are far more likely to be able to assist than a conference organizer who's not physically there. "…

OK, sure. If your response is not "it's not the conference organizers problem" but "we should also try to look out for each other in social situations," I will agree wholeheartedly with that. Yes, there are things that we should do while we are there in person. And there are things that should be handled at the conference organizer level, if there is someone who has demonstrated unacceptable behavior at the conferenc…

I'll drink to that!

As somebody who's organized community gatherings himself (and made plenty of mistakes in this area himself) I do feel that organizers play an important role as you say.

To put it in really literal terms, when I organized my first meetup, we had a mix of under- and over-21 members. I was really concerned about underage drinking. I really strongly let our members know what was expected of them. I think I stopped just shy of threatening to beat them up and/or report them to the FBI if I caught one whiff of something bad happening to anybody, especially the underage members. I definitely got the message across, at least.

While that kind of approach obviously doesn't directly scale/translate to a professional conference, I think the overarching principle is the same. The organizers set the tone, outline accountability, and (if it's a multi-year event) weed out repeat offenders. The rest is up to the community.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#115

If the lady says she was harassed we should totally ban the criminal from any future conferences, jobs and parties. Forget the due process, she was disgusted by everyone associated with the rapist. Disgusted! Zero-tolerance means we don't even need Obama to look over the kill-list. The pedophile must pay. P.S.: at last year's EuroPython conference in Italy we were greeted by a menacing organizer threatening to call t…

from the CoC is fuck a sexual language?

Re: Let's get a little louder

#116

If the lady says she was harassed we should totally ban the criminal from any future conferences, jobs and parties. Forget the due process, she was disgusted by everyone associated with the rapist. Disgusted! Zero-tolerance means we don't even need Obama to look over the kill-list. The pedophile must pay. P.S.: at last year's EuroPython conference in Italy we were greeted by a menacing organizer threatening to call t…

from the CoC is fuck a sexual language?

fuck yeah

Re: Let's get a little louder

#117
I'd like to note that "groping" is not mentioned in the article. No other touching either. Just that some creep started to make "inappropriate sexual advances" towards the writer.

So it seems to be one time unpleasant conversation. I'd hardly call that harassment.

If one time unpleasant conversation with persistent person is harassment, then I was once police-harassed. This officer wanted me to go to police academy. I said no but he didn't stop. He was quite drunk. And last weekend I was oil-change-harassed, my dad kept insisting that I'd do an oil change to my car this summer. He was drunk too.

But I have to admit that this kind of behavior towards women should stop. What is causing it? Let's go after the source, not just try to heal the symptoms.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#118
post #78

I am really quite disturbed by all of the people who are responding something along the lines of "this isn't the conference organizer's problem, it's happening outside of the conference." I've seen several such replies, so rather than responding to one, I'm responding to the whole sentiment here. At a conference, there is a lot that goes on during unofficial off-hours, that is really an integral part of the conferenc…

It doesn't sound like there's any dispute about what happened.

Woah, hold on just a minute there!

The only reason there is no dispute is because we're getting the story 100% from one side. I don't know either of these people involved and I suspect none of the commenters here do either. There are several possible narratives that fit this story:

* "Sleazy dude attacks woman"

* "Clash of cultures; open-marriage dude meets conservative girl"

* "Crazy bitch made it all up"

A couple days ago there was a HN story about WhosHere suing WhosNearMe and the thread was full of "we need to hear the other side before rushing to judgement". This insight seems to have been lost here.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#119

Pics or it didn't happen. Seriously. YouTube is worth a thousand zero tolerance policies.

Why the downvote hate? A few videos demonstrating the problem would eliminate the controversy, as well as let the offenders punish themselves in their own words.

Because if I was being sexually harassed, I wouldn't stay around the harasser long enough to pull out a camera phone and record the (horribly vulgar) advances - especially considering the risk of the harasser becoming violent when recorded. I would get the heck away.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#120
post #117

I'd like to note that "groping" is not mentioned in the article. No other touching either. Just that some creep started to make "inappropriate sexual advances" towards the writer. So it seems to be one time unpleasant conversation. I'd hardly call that harassment. If one time unpleasant conversation with persistent person is harassment, then I was once police-harassed. This officer wanted me to go to police academy.…

FYI, if, within the realm of reason, you ask someone to stop doing something that bothers you and they continue to do so, that's usually harassment.
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