11th grade • Hacker News Board

Re: 11th grade

#111

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 3:33 PM UTC

petercooper wrote: post #53

timr wrote: post #15

Ugh. Why is it that self-professed "nerds" are always so blatantly anti-intellectual? It's such short-sighted nonsense; nothing but pandering to the immaturity of every 16-year-old throughout history who day-dreamed his way through the classes that he didn't like, and justified it by whining: "when am I gonna have to use this?" You know what? Sometimes you have to learn things that you don't think you'll "use in real…

Why is it that self-professed "nerds" are always so blatantly anti-intellectual? Anti-intellectual is the wrong term. Anti-system or anti-academia would be better. The nerds you refer to generally believe strongly in learning and becoming smarter (indeed, knowledge and intelligence are measures by which many nerds brag) but not so strongly in the system of academia, "qualifications" and systems of education.

I believe the argument is that claiming that a weekend hacking Perl is of greater value than an entire year's worth of academic school work undervalues skills like reading and writing, history, even math and the sciences. Maybe if you are arguing that you knew the entire curriculum from front to back before entering the 11th grade then one weekend of Perl might be of greater value. But if there are even a few things in each subject you didn't know before hand then claiming that a weekend of Perl is more valuable is just hyperbole.

Re: 11th grade

#112

Post by hooande » Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 3:39 PM UTC

If it hadn't been for that weekend I spent messing with perl in 11th grade, I wouldn't have gotten into ycombinator

Re: 11th grade

#113

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 3:43 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #35

sown wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was in HS I recognized it as a waste. I didn't really learn much. The people around me didn't care and it mostly felt like day care. It all was mostly busy work. The only way to get a "challenging" education was to jump through a bunch of hoops, such as joining Key Club, marching band, AP everything, extracurricular this and that, all of it just a way of padding a college resume. Now those are things you will…

You're talking to someone who not only went to a public high school (and not a particularly great one), but had to fight to take college courses, as well as the few AP classes the school offered. I was just as bored as you writing five-paragraph essays; I winced my way through such winning courses as "Home Economics" and "Typing", as well as a chemistry class where everything was taught as a fact to be memorized, wit…

'I winced my way through such winning courses as "Home Economics" and "Typing"'

Others have already addressed Typing, including the Mighty Steve Yegge, so I won't dwell on that.

Home Economics just requires the right attitude. Like me and my friends would move everything from one drawer to another when the teacher wasn't looking, just to mess with her head. We would experiment and sneak ingredients into dishes that the recipe did not call for. We would beg for the right to make the Kool Aid (insert Steve Jobs joke here). The teacher was mostly a good sport, maybe because we were a bunch of guys being good sports about taking in a Home Ec class and having fun with it (in our admittedly immature way) instead of whining and complaining about it.

Re: 11th grade

#114

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 3:55 PM UTC

staunch wrote: post #43

timr wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Maybe I'm misinterpreting you, but you seem to think that high-school kids who are reading this are arrogant and stupid." You are. I'm talking to the people who see stuff like this, and think about dropping out. Clearly, that set doesn't include all high school kids. "As for learning things you won't "use in real life"? I agree, it's good. But I'm sorry, some classes don't just teach you things you won't use - they…

> I was an idiot. Back then, I didn't have the perspective to know what was important and what was unimportant... And what makes you think the people designing your high school curriculum knew any better or that teaching you important things was even their goal? I think with a little guidance from well educated people I could have spent my high school years learning a hell of a lot more important things than my schoo…

"And what makes you think the people designing your high school curriculum knew any better or that teaching you important things was even their goal?"

The insinuation here borders on slander.

How much time did you spend asking your instructors for more interesting work to do? Did you ask them about why they chose the curriculum they did? Whether there were better choices? For advice on guiding your personal learning process?

If so, you might have a case to make here (but only for your specific teachers, not the entire profession). If not, you malign your teachers without enough evidence to back your accusations.

I remember two teachers specifically, who were ecstatic to have a student who actually gave a damn about learning. One affectionately (and jokingly) called me his "disciple." They went out of their way to find experiments for me to do in the course of applying for my state's summer science school. They found ways to help me learn more about computers and programming.

If you just blew your teachers off and did not even engage them about how they could help you learn, the blame falls more on you than them.

Re: 11th grade

#115

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 3:58 PM UTC

Raphael wrote: post #109

gamache wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tom is the anti-establishment, mischievous one -- he's set up with a family, so he has the room for mischief. Huck has no family, no one other than a drunk bum dad. He's interested in Tom's mischief, and that's his strongest connection to childhood, but mostly he's grown up beyond his years because he needs to take care of himself all the time.

Thanks. I am a bit hazy from not reading too thoroughly and mostly picking it up from spoofs.

I think this makes an important point about paying attention to more than just computers in high school.

Re: 11th grade

#116

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 4:14 PM UTC

markbao wrote: post #39

thomasmallen wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm looking over your stuff at http://markbao.com/ ... it looks like you're more concerned with appearing to be an entrepeneur than with the work itself and product quality. These sites are simply fluff. Also, I'm not sure how you can really create quality small business collaboration tools without having been in the working world. Just an observation. Making $10B is not a very admirable life goal: http://markbao.com…

Thanks for the feedback. > These sites are simply fluff. The sites on there are pretty old, which is why I linked a newer list (incl http://ramamia.com ) The third isn't an open site, fourth and fifth just experiments. > Also, I'm not sure how you can really create quality small business collaboration tools without having been in the working world. Just an observation. You're right, though I'm not really saying AOD i…

"Care to elaborate on why it's not an admirable goal?"

It's useless. It's like the cartoon with two academics standing in front a black board filled with equations, and in big letters right in the middle it says "then a miracle occurs."

http://www.sciencecartoonsplus.com/pages/gallery.php

Having $10B net worth in no way gives you any guidance whatsoever what to work on today, tomorrow, or next week. It is not informative enough. A goal like "make something people want" might guide you in actually making those actionable decisions and give you a better shot at making $10B than having "make $10B" itself as the goal.

Re: 11th grade

#117

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 4:38 PM UTC

Oompa wrote: post #3

jackowayed wrote: post #2

When I saw this, my first reaction was "Randall is stalking me." I'm in 11th grade. It's Ruby, not Perl, and regular, not just a weekend, but it's basically my life. All the school work I have leaves me not enough hacking time. I wish I could get sucked into a startup so I'd have a reason to drop out.

I stopped doing homework to program. I'm not sure I'd advise the same to others, but because of all the extra-curricular activities I did with programming, I feel it was worth it.

I remember never taking any homework home from any class, I just finished it all in study hall. And still had time to write Basic programs on the school computers, during the school day (not all of it in computer class).

Reading some of these comments, I suspect that the amount of homework has gone up, and that is the reason for much of the frustration. Not just that there is busy work, but the sheer quantity of busy work.

My kids are going to a Catholic elementary school, and a parent who transferred to their school from the public school said that the amount of homework is much less in the Catholic school, and her kids actually like school now. Frankly, I find the idea of lots of homework in elementary school bullshit. I don't believe elementary kids really benefit from multiple hours of homework every night, and believe that it could lead to burnout by middle school. My son in 1st grade gets homework, but it seems more to get him comfortable with the idea, rather than to consume 2 more hours that he could spend doing other things, including reading things that personally interest him.

That puts a lot of the complaints here in a different perspective for me. If there is so much homework that it doesn't leave time for Perl hacking, that's a big fail on the part of the school system.

Re: 11th grade

#118

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 4:45 PM UTC

Raphael wrote: post #105

mantas wrote: post #14

My 11th grade: Coding at night Sleeping at school :p Hoeworks? I thought they dont give any after 8th grade..

Homework is at the discretion of the teacher, and is also highly correlated to subject. For example, math might be every day, history once a week or so, and a couple gym class health assignments the whole year. But it seems to have nothing to do with what grade you're in. I thought that writing assignments would gradually get longer, but my final essay senior year was half the length of my 7th grade science report on…

"I thought that writing assignments would gradually get longer, but my final essay senior year was half the length of my 7th grade science report on the human body, so I was clearly mistaken."

I remember my college freshman year class where every writing assignment could not exceed a single page. The professor's explanation: "You have spent several years learning how to put more things into your writing. Now you will learn to take things out." It was a very important lesson in writing concisely.

Not that this reflects your case, but it reminded me of this and thought I'd share.

Re: 11th grade

#119

Post by sah » Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 5:09 PM UTC

steveblgh wrote: post #98

jey wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Er, what exactly is intellectual about 1300 hours of busy work? I fully support learning/reading/studying, but formal education only includes those things obliquely as an accidental side effect. High School is mostly about babysitting and obedience -- your success is measured by your willingness to jump through arbitrary hoops specified by authority figures. Sure, the ones who take an interest in the material will le…

11th grade for me seemed quite intellectual. In those 1300 hours of busy work I learned about infinite series, analytical geometry, differential calculus, basic group theory, basic linear algebra, and this is just maths. While I had to relearn most of this in college in more rigorous format, most of my intuition in maths I have from this time.

Wow, your school was a lot better than mine.

Re: 11th grade

#120

Post by timr » Mon, Dec 22, 2008, 5:26 PM UTC

PieSquared wrote: post #97

timr wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the situations you described, there are a couple of ways to respond: 1) Do the work. It's easy, so you'll do it quickly and get a high grade. Then you can ask for more challenging work (or just do something more interesting). 2) Don't do the work. Instead, complain about the inanity of the class and the idiocy of the teacher. You'll get a bad grade, and a bad reputation, too. There are times to recognize busywork…

Don't forget the most important and IMO best option: 3) Do just enough busy work to get a decent grade, and don't whine about it too much. That's my method. If I have a 100% in CS, what's the point of doing all the pointless busywork? Just relax for a month until your grade drops to a 92%, then you have to start working a bit.

That's the first option I listed: do the work quickly, then do something else. I never said that the goal was to get perfect grades in everything; the goal is not to be a martyr in the name of improving the system.