Let's get a little louder • Hacker News Board

Re: Let's get a little louder

#31

Post by Jach » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:46 PM UTC

shadowfiend wrote: post #22

stfu wrote: post #10

Somehow I see no causation between a conference and the drunken comments by its attendees at a bar. Trying to argue that a conference organizer should hold some moral responsible for the people attending seems to me just ridiculous. He looked at me and sighed, confessing that he never should have allowed this guy to come to the conference. Here the Wait. What? Really? seems to be better placed - is there somebody rea…

It is hardly “some random bar encounter”. This is the latest in a string of publicly described issues with sexual harassment in the tech community, both at conferences and elsewhere. The same rule applies here as with bugs reported by users: if one person is talking about this out loud, it means dozens are probably running into it and staying silent. That is unacceptable. And to consider conference organizers respons…

The other uncharitable interpretation is: "What did you expect when you get drunk men and women together at a bar?" But focusing on the GP's general point, I feel like this was more of a failure of the bar (shouldn't they be on the lookout for these things?) than the conference. Also, if you're being harassed at a bar, why don't you immediately tell the bar owner/tender/bouncer or police instead of waiting a full day before telling the conference organizer? (You can do the latter too, but the former was left out of the given narrative which makes me think it wasn't done.) [Edited for clarity.]

Re: Let's get a little louder

#32

Post by FuzzyDunlop » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:49 PM UTC

xutopia wrote: post #14

I've gotten into a bar fight to protect a woman I did not know. I almost got into a fight in the subway for the same reason, twice. However I can't stand these kinds of stories. All I hear is one socially awkward guy trying really hard in the worst possible way. I'm conflicted because on the other hand the guy seemed like an asshole but I have only one side of the story and feel like it would be jumping to conclusion…

It seems to me that it might have been worthwhile talking to a bouncer or other member of staff to warn the guy to stay away from her, or risk being thrown out.

Whether or not that's reasonable, I don't know; but if the guy was a real problem for her (and from her side it sounds like he was), then "telling people" at that point in time, rather than afterwards, would have been more prudent.

There's absolutely no reason for anyone to put up with this kind of shit from someone else.

But further to that, this can't and shouldn't be painted as another story about sexism in tech. This is a story (from one side) about a guy having a few drinks and trying it on in his own cringeworthy way, and lacking the forethought to quit with some dignity intact. His choice of career has fuck all to do with that, and neither does the conference.

(I'm all for policies and legislation that prohibit this sort of thing, by the by, but they're not going to stop some guy who thinks he's god's gift from making pervy remarks on a night out. Neither is walking away and hoping you get left alone.)

Re: Let's get a little louder

#33

Post by Hytosys » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 2:54 PM UTC

dpeck wrote: post #28

Maybe I'm missing something but why not handle it with the safeguards at the venue? The conference is not in the business of protecting its attendees from unwanted advances, especially outside of the conference areas/sponsored events. Why not speak to the manager of the bar and have him escorted out? If it happens at the hotel, do the same with the hotel manager. People in the service/hospitality industry know how to…

Agreed. Why is the development community (this conference in specific) being held responsible for the acts of an individual who happens to reside within? This is clearly something that should be taken care like an adult of outside of a private community. The story is a bummer, but the author's response to the situation is quite childish and this blog post seems somewhat irrelevant.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#34

Post by PakG1 » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 3:01 PM UTC

neilk wrote: post #25

supernooneo wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Take a stand against what? Unproven claims?

Pretty much. This isn't a court of law or a public gathering. This is a privately organized event. It's totally okay to exclude disruptive people, and to act on stuff you're reasonably sure is true. Imagine there was some emacs guy who routinely went around harassing people who used vim. To the point where he got so offensive that the vim people felt they weren't being respected as professionals, even humiliated and…

Let's look at the flip side. Someone who does go around making life miserable for others by falsely accusing them of things. In a case where nobody knows both parties well, what are you supposed to do? I'm not saying what happened was OK. I'm saying the flip side is something we need to beware of also.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#35

Post by icebraining » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 3:05 PM UTC

xutopia wrote: post #14

I've gotten into a bar fight to protect a woman I did not know. I almost got into a fight in the subway for the same reason, twice. However I can't stand these kinds of stories. All I hear is one socially awkward guy trying really hard in the worst possible way. I'm conflicted because on the other hand the guy seemed like an asshole but I have only one side of the story and feel like it would be jumping to conclusion…

    I then (...) asked how his daughter was, thinking that would
    snap him out of it. And with a blank stare he said bluntly,
    "She's a slut."

I'm having much trouble seeing what kind of person except an extreme asshole would say something like this. Regardless of what they really think.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#36

Post by koide » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 3:06 PM UTC

yock wrote: post #27

davidw wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the more reason to have a well thought-out policy in place for how to deal with a potentially explosive situation.

If a conference wants to have a policy governing the actions of their attendees whilst at the conference , wonderful. If a conference thinks they have any right to govern the actions of people who happen to be attendees whilst not at the conference , then they can go pound sand. It's sad that this woman was apparently treated so poorly, but there's no possible way for a conference to write a legally-binding code of c…

The policy does not need to be legally binding, just very clear of the consequences, and they can make clear what will happen if they get a complaint about you.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#37

Post by Avenger42 » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 3:14 PM UTC

PakG1 wrote: post #34

neilk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. This isn't a court of law or a public gathering. This is a privately organized event. It's totally okay to exclude disruptive people, and to act on stuff you're reasonably sure is true. Imagine there was some emacs guy who routinely went around harassing people who used vim. To the point where he got so offensive that the vim people felt they weren't being respected as professionals, even humiliated and…

Let's look at the flip side. Someone who does go around making life miserable for others by falsely accusing them of things. In a case where nobody knows both parties well, what are you supposed to do? I'm not saying what happened was OK. I'm saying the flip side is something we need to beware of also.

That doesn't seem to be the case here, though. The organizer's sigh and admission that "he never should have allowed this guy to come to the conference" sounds like he had prior warning that this could happen.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#38

Post by neilk » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 3:17 PM UTC

Jach wrote: post #31

shadowfiend wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is hardly “some random bar encounter”. This is the latest in a string of publicly described issues with sexual harassment in the tech community, both at conferences and elsewhere. The same rule applies here as with bugs reported by users: if one person is talking about this out loud, it means dozens are probably running into it and staying silent. That is unacceptable. And to consider conference organizers respons…

The other uncharitable interpretation is: "What did you expect when you get drunk men and women together at a bar?" But focusing on the GP's general point, I feel like this was more of a failure of the bar (shouldn't they be on the lookout for these things?) than the conference. Also, if you're being harassed at a bar, why don't you immediately tell the bar owner/tender/bouncer or police instead of waiting a full day…

The OP doesn't specify, but her alleged harasser is well known in the community already. So I would assume he's not just a regular conference attendee; he's probably got some technical reputation, and may be a featured speaker. That's usually what makes these things extra extra difficult.

As for whether the bar is really part of the conference, I agree it's a bit of a grey zone. But in every such gathering, the unofficial parts are where most of the important stuff happens. If you have a conference where the women feel unwelcome doing that stuff, you don't really have a woman-friendly conference.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#39

Post by supernooneo » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 3:27 PM UTC

PakG1 wrote: post #34

neilk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. This isn't a court of law or a public gathering. This is a privately organized event. It's totally okay to exclude disruptive people, and to act on stuff you're reasonably sure is true. Imagine there was some emacs guy who routinely went around harassing people who used vim. To the point where he got so offensive that the vim people felt they weren't being respected as professionals, even humiliated and…

Let's look at the flip side. Someone who does go around making life miserable for others by falsely accusing them of things. In a case where nobody knows both parties well, what are you supposed to do? I'm not saying what happened was OK. I'm saying the flip side is something we need to beware of also.

I can't reply to Avenger42 as this thread has got too deep, but in response to him or her, you are supporting one unproven claim, by citing her, citing him, making another unproven claim. He could be lying. She could be lying. And if I didn't have access to the same blog post and you were telling me about it, you could by lying.

Moreover, she could be _mistaken_. Perhaps about the guy's name. He could also be _mistaken_, thinking she's talking about another guy, or getting names and faces mixed up.

Re: Let's get a little louder

#40

Post by neilk » Mon, Jun 04, 2012, 3:38 PM UTC

PakG1 wrote: post #34

neilk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much. This isn't a court of law or a public gathering. This is a privately organized event. It's totally okay to exclude disruptive people, and to act on stuff you're reasonably sure is true. Imagine there was some emacs guy who routinely went around harassing people who used vim. To the point where he got so offensive that the vim people felt they weren't being respected as professionals, even humiliated and…

Let's look at the flip side. Someone who does go around making life miserable for others by falsely accusing them of things. In a case where nobody knows both parties well, what are you supposed to do? I'm not saying what happened was OK. I'm saying the flip side is something we need to beware of also.

I think the OP is arguing that there should be a procedure in place, so you're not improvising, or making arbitrary rules that aren't fairly applied.

If nobody saw it happen and nobody knows either party well, I would say, record it and move on. If you have multiple reports, have a planned way to escalate, involving friendly warnings, going all the way up to removing the person and/or banning them.

Where it gets really bad - and I think everyone has seen this situation before - is when the guy is some sort of alpha geek, and may even be the kind of person that draws attendees. Everyone is inclined to bend the rules. I think that's why a standard procedure would be important.