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Ask HN: How can we change ethics in big tech?

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Re: Ask HN: How can we change ethics in big tech?

#31

Post by palata »

bnchrch wrote: post #11

Let me know when you can solve for 1 or more of - Human Greed - A system set up on the principal of the more you have capital you have, the more capital you can acquire. - The instinct to achieve "security" for you and your family - Democracy being run on averages, and the IQ/EQ of the average person is frighteningly sub-par - Ethics being an idea not a formula - The instinct for most of our educated population to fo…

Maybe if BigTech was not as big, they would have less money and therefore they would pay more decent salaries.

It's very difficult for an individual to refuse a huge salary based on ethics. Especially for engineers, who did not go into engineering because they cared about ethics in the first place.

Re: Ask HN: How can we change ethics in big tech?

#32

Post by keiferski »

palata wrote: post #29
keiferski wrote: post #18

It is a cliche, but: education. I think most people don’t even consider that there are ethical arguments to be had, and merely accept whatever is given to them. That and easy off-ramps for alternatives. “X is bad, so use Y instead” is a powerful move, but it only works if Y is actually a viable alternative to X.

I strongly believe that engineers should have mandatory ethics classes. Then when they accept a BigTech salary, at least they would know that they trade their ethics for their salary. I find it alarming how many engineers just don't ever think about the impact technology has on the world.

Absolutely, it is a little crazy how omnipresent technology is in shaping society and yet the average worker has one ethics class in college, tops.

Re: Ask HN: How can we change ethics in big tech?

#33

Post by aristofun »

palata wrote: post #28
aristofun wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You imply that big tech has malicious goals in mind in the first place. Which is not the case, speaking from experience. It means it is not a serious threat by itself, no more than professional pilots is a threat to air travel safety. Just because they know too much about flying.

> Which is not the case, speaking from experience. Of course not. A company does not have "intentions" or "feelings". A company is just a big profit maximization machine, and people at every level contribute to it. But I think we can say that the result is that BigTech results in unethical stuff (starting with surveillance capitalism). Without blaming individuals, it's possible to recognize it and search for solution…

> BigTech results in unethical stuff

Nope. This is a pretty big claim to be taken without a good proof.

Why do you think so?

Because of _some_ bad actors today (out of many)? Because of _some_ bad practices in the past (already covered by new regulations in place)?

Re: Ask HN: How can we change ethics in big tech?

#34

Post by palata »

aristofun wrote: post #33
palata wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Which is not the case, speaking from experience. Of course not. A company does not have "intentions" or "feelings". A company is just a big profit maximization machine, and people at every level contribute to it. But I think we can say that the result is that BigTech results in unethical stuff (starting with surveillance capitalism). Without blaming individuals, it's possible to recognize it and search for solution…

> BigTech results in unethical stuff Nope. This is a pretty big claim to be taken without a good proof. Why do you think so? Because of _some_ bad actors today (out of many)? Because of _some_ bad practices in the past (already covered by new regulations in place)?

> Why do you think so?

As mentioned in the next words of my quote (which you apparently ignored): because BigTech brought us surveillance capitalism, and surveillance capitalism is unethical. The evolution of surveillance capitalism being mass spying (with AI accessing all that data), which is unethical.

And because of tons of documented "bad practices" over the years. New regulations will just bring new unethical practices if that goes with profit maximization.

Re: Ask HN: How can we change ethics in big tech?

#35

Post by aristofun »

palata wrote: post #34
aristofun wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> BigTech results in unethical stuff Nope. This is a pretty big claim to be taken without a good proof. Why do you think so? Because of _some_ bad actors today (out of many)? Because of _some_ bad practices in the past (already covered by new regulations in place)?

> Why do you think so? As mentioned in the next words of my quote (which you apparently ignored): because BigTech brought us surveillance capitalism, and surveillance capitalism is unethical. The evolution of surveillance capitalism being mass spying (with AI accessing all that data), which is unethical. And because of tons of documented "bad practices" over the years. New regulations will just bring new unethical pr…

Define “surveillance capitalism”, prove that it is what big companies purposfuly do, show how it is doing more harm than good to society and only after that your words can take part in meaningful discussion.

Until then all you say is just opinionated generalizations and dropping cool looking but meaningless words.

Re: Ask HN: How can we change ethics in big tech?

#36

Post by palata »

aristofun wrote: post #35
palata wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why do you think so? As mentioned in the next words of my quote (which you apparently ignored): because BigTech brought us surveillance capitalism, and surveillance capitalism is unethical. The evolution of surveillance capitalism being mass spying (with AI accessing all that data), which is unethical. And because of tons of documented "bad practices" over the years. New regulations will just bring new unethical pr…

Define “surveillance capitalism”, prove that it is what big companies purposfuly do, show how it is doing more harm than good to society and only after that your words can take part in meaningful discussion. Until then all you say is just opinionated generalizations and dropping cool looking but meaningless words.

It genuinely feels like you are in bad faith here, ignoring the parts of my comments you don't like.

Surveillance capitalism [1] is a pretty well-defined concept. If you don't know it, maybe you should refrain from talking about ethics in the context of BigTech.

> prove that it is what big companies purposfuly do

Why should it be purposeful? That's just your addition to support your point of view. I clearly said above that the purpose of companies is to maximize profit. All the rest kind of comes from there. A company is not unethical because it is "evil". It is unethical because that's the rational way to maximize profit.

> Until then all you say is just opinionated generalizations and dropping cool looking but meaningless words.

Sure. And yours are not. Let's stop it here.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveillance_capitalism

Re: Ask HN: How can we change ethics in big tech?

#37

Post by aristofun »

palata wrote: post #36
aristofun wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define “surveillance capitalism”, prove that it is what big companies purposfuly do, show how it is doing more harm than good to society and only after that your words can take part in meaningful discussion. Until then all you say is just opinionated generalizations and dropping cool looking but meaningless words.

It genuinely feels like you are in bad faith here, ignoring the parts of my comments you don't like. Surveillance capitalism [1] is a pretty well-defined concept. If you don't know it, maybe you should refrain from talking about ethics in the context of BigTech. > prove that it is what big companies purposfuly do Why should it be purposeful? That's just your addition to support your point of view. I clearly said abov…

I see your comments I just think it’s a bullshit (like half of wiki articles around political and ideological topics today).

I base it on some facts I know about big companies from inside - while some of them sometimes had bad intentions and do bad unethical things,

vast majority is just genuinely trying to do business and bring value to customers or consumers. While wasting ton of money and people-hours to meaningless work around another dumb regulation promoted by dumb bureaucrats.

And btw, define “ethical” before you ignorantly label the whole industry sector as unethical. Can you?

Re: Ask HN: How can we change ethics in big tech?

#38

Post by palata »

aristofun wrote: post #37
palata wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It genuinely feels like you are in bad faith here, ignoring the parts of my comments you don't like. Surveillance capitalism [1] is a pretty well-defined concept. If you don't know it, maybe you should refrain from talking about ethics in the context of BigTech. > prove that it is what big companies purposfuly do Why should it be purposeful? That's just your addition to support your point of view. I clearly said abov…

I see your comments I just think it’s a bullshit (like half of wiki articles around political and ideological topics today). I base it on some facts I know about big companies from inside - while some of them sometimes had bad intentions and do bad unethical things, vast majority is just genuinely trying to do business and bring value to customers or consumers. While wasting ton of money and people-hours to meaningle…

> vast majority is just genuinely trying to do business and bring value to customers or consumers

Can you tell me where I said the opposite? It feels like either you don't read what I write, or you don't understand. That would explain why you ask me to define every second word.

> While wasting ton of money and people-hours to meaningless work around another dumb regulation promoted by dumb bureaucrats.

Define "wasting" and "dumb" before you ignorantly label a whole industry sector. Can you?

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