It is time for more holistic practices in mental health • Hacker News Board

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#61

Post by zer00eyz » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 9:01 AM UTC

tsobral wrote: post #50

can16358p wrote: post #25

I strongly believe we don't have "mental health problems", yet we have a global style of living in "modern society" that is inherently incompatible with the way we evolved: e.g. office-based daily tasks instead of walking and hunting, foods fabricated to stimulate us instead of what we could find in nature, high buildings and cities with sound/light/air pollution instead of a calm, clean nature, always trying to "opt…

This. In the past few decades we changed completely how we are supposed to live. Our bodies and brains evolved and adapted through thousands and thousands of years. With plenty of outdoor activity, sunlight, bonding in close communities, quiet time to exercise creativity and arts, and specially, the lack of continuous stimuli and artificially induced anxiety and stress of modern world.

> In the past few decades we changed completely how we are supposed to live... outdoor activity, sunlight, bonding in close communities, quiet time

It's more like 100 years for this division.

> continuous stimuli and artificially induced anxiety and stress of modern world

Is anxiety artificial?

400k years ago, humanity emerges. 40k years ago we finish raping and murdering the last of our close ancestors off the face of the earth (Neandertals and Densovians). It's not like we settled down after that. What are the founding stories for Rome: one brother kills another then go one town over a kidnap some wives (rape of the sabine women).

I picked Rome because the Pax Romana was 200 years of peace. ON the back of mass professionalized violence (the Legion). It wasnt exactly a time of ease and abundance out side the select few.

The last dual in America was less than 200 years ago.

2 generations ago you were lucky to make it out of a major war... the ones we have had since have been mild and voluntary.

We live in a time of abundance, ease, and calm in comparison to history.

No bears are going to eat us. No one is going to come in and burn the village down. We're not worried about starving. Or war... the "plague" was a bit upsetting but in the grand scheme of things it didn't kill a lot of us.

Are we supposed to be anxious and stressed for real reasons, are we programed to be that way, and are now freaking out over minor things because we have gotten rid of all the major ones?

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#62

Post by netcan » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 9:03 AM UTC

> psychiatric models in the 20th century, centered on the notion of disease... ..mental health conditions are to a large extent, a social construct produced by lifestyles

Is the problem medicalization of psychiatry, or is it "sciensification?"

How much progres have we actually made in the last 100 years? Medicine, particularly "wellness" is difficult to map onto an experimental framework. Even theoretically testable, Popper-esque theories are hard to formulate. For psychology/psychiatry... pretty much impossible.

To the extent that treatment is ever actually science-based... "Science" means a pharmacalogical framework, a drug testing framework. You can substitute exercise, talk therapy or whatnot for drugs but... that approach is going to lead you to conclude "drugs."

IRL, practitioners are either entirely nonscientific or extremely narrow... or both. There isn't really a "model of the mind" that's both expansive and scientific. We're dealing with that middle ground of science, philosophy and practical need that tends not to produce knowledge.

Without being disparaging, how much actual knowledge has psychiatry gained over the last 100 years?

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#63

Post by NotGMan » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 9:14 AM UTC

The son of Roblox CEO had serious mental issues which were cured by going on a low carb diet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQWh_ofvziE

Diet is extremely underrated, if not probably one of the main causes of mental illness (aside from severe chronic life stress).

You can also check Chris Palmer on twitter.

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#64

Post by kombookcha » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 9:21 AM UTC

huijzer wrote: post #45

I talk a lot to people who are training to become therapist, to PhD's in psychology, and read a lot of psychology papers. If there is one thing it's time for then it's for academia to get out of their ivory tower and face the real world. As Taleb puts it: “I will repeat the following until I am hoarse: it is contagion that determines the fate of a theory in social science, not its validity.” Or as Yarkoni & Westfall…

"I personally think it's fair to compare social science research with monks researching a religious text. They can work hard for years without ever coming up with a new idea."

Based on my own experiences, I really don't think this applies to other social sciences very well at all. I'm not particularly familiar with psych papers, which may well be mostly based on text-on-text, but in all the social science disciplines I am familiar with there's a great deal of focus on fieldwork and diving into the messy nitty-gritty of the actual world.

Is psych uniquely constrained from doing this somehow (patient ethics?), or is it a particular culture in the psych departments causing this?

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#65

Post by jan3024 » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 9:25 AM UTC

martin293 wrote: post #56

lynx23 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. "That is idiotic; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." Also, > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

[dead]

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#66

Post by JR1427 » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 9:31 AM UTC

konschubert wrote: post #58

JR1427 wrote: post #51

One thing that has helped me over the last two years is not watching or reading the news (I've haven't done social media in a decade). I know some people will think it is morally wrong of me to not be interested in the world and society. In fact, I used to think as much too, and thought myself terribly clever because I had an Economist subscription. The fact is that I _am_ interested in the world and society, but all…

If it helps you that’s good and I might do the same. But two things: a) this is a luxury you can afford because you live in a country where you can trust that your house isn’t going to explode tomorrow. b) If everybody did this, a) would quickly no longer be true…

To clarify, I don't close my ears to everything going on in the outside world. I just don't get my information from news websites or tv stations etc.

I still like to talk to people about what is going on. I find that less stressful, maybe because when talking with friends, family, colleagues, we don't tend to use such alarmist language (at least the people I talk to don't).

As for point b), I can imagine this might not be true, as long as it really was the case that no-one was informed. Hard to plan and orchestrate bad things without information!

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#67

Post by somenameforme » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 9:34 AM UTC

zer00eyz wrote: post #53

huijzer wrote: post #45

I talk a lot to people who are training to become therapist, to PhD's in psychology, and read a lot of psychology papers. If there is one thing it's time for then it's for academia to get out of their ivory tower and face the real world. As Taleb puts it: “I will repeat the following until I am hoarse: it is contagion that determines the fate of a theory in social science, not its validity.” Or as Yarkoni & Westfall…

> If there is one thing it's time for then it's for academia to get out of their ivory tower and face the real world. I dont disagree but there is a deeper issue with the academic side of things. > Currently, peer review and grant proposals are largely done by academic peers. These peers can strengthen dogmatic ideas. Somehow, there should be a mechanism introduced that counters this. Psych in general is where the wh…

While indirectly equivalent, I think the far worse side of the coin than "strengthening dogmatic ideas" is shooting down ideas that run contrary to dogma, precisely because they run contrary to dogma.

There are some great examples in science, like relativity, where basically everybody just tossed aside the old and embraced the new. But those are absolutely the exception, rather than the rule. There's a reason no less than Max Planck remarked that, "Science progresses one funeral at a time."

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#68

Post by htamas » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 9:40 AM UTC

hansworst wrote: post #24

aljgz wrote: post #17

It is incredible how bad we are, at the end of the first quarter of 21st century, at having a well planned and executed strategy to improve mental health of people. Compare it to physical health. For instance, everyone is advised to take regular tests (like blood tests). While things can still be improved a lot, this simple proactive measure helps detect many health problems before they cause serious damage. For ment…

On the flip side: in some cases there are downsides to regular checkups, in particular false positive diagnoses leading to medical operations causing more harm on a population level than if the checkups hadn’t been done in the first place. Unfortunately our medical practices aren’t always good enough yet where doing early checkups at a large scale actually prevent harm. Combine this with the sometimes shoddy diagnost…

There are questionnaires and tests in forensic psychology that are almost impossible to fake or get false positives from, like the MMPI-2.

It’s explained beautifully here: https://youtu.be/lLXcZZiecys?si=KmxSVPYQSXRbBJyr

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#69

Post by a-french-anon » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 9:43 AM UTC

red1reaper wrote: post #34

xlii wrote: post #12

I agree, but on the other hand I don’t think anyone can do anything. I have a stake in treating ADHD but it’s difficult to even describe what ADHD is to a layperson. Describing the needs is almost impossible as different people have different needs and they often don’t align. What I’m sure of, though, is that “today” is very hostile to mental health. Some people have been focusing on microplastics, impact of drugs, u…

If I had to describe ADHD to a layperson so they can understand what means to have ADHD... I would describe as to having something in your brain that you don't control that is always conspiring to get you to do nothing, if it fails to have you doing anything but what you want/should be doing; Wherever this is accomplished by making you forget, distracting you, robbing your willpower, making it hard to concentrate, ma…

This is the first time I've read a description of ADHD, even if it's plastered everywhere on the Web, so consider my reaction genuine and not intended to offend: isn't this just a mix of lack of willpower (potentially subconscious, which could explain the "forgetting" part) and ennui/depression?

In french, we have the word "flemme" that can be approximately translated into "laziness", but it's a bit different, because "flemme" is often construed as an enemy within, something you have to fight, and some people have more than others.

Re: It is time for more holistic practices in mental health

#70

Post by huijzer » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 9:44 AM UTC

kombookcha wrote: post #64

huijzer wrote: post #45

I talk a lot to people who are training to become therapist, to PhD's in psychology, and read a lot of psychology papers. If there is one thing it's time for then it's for academia to get out of their ivory tower and face the real world. As Taleb puts it: “I will repeat the following until I am hoarse: it is contagion that determines the fate of a theory in social science, not its validity.” Or as Yarkoni & Westfall…

"I personally think it's fair to compare social science research with monks researching a religious text. They can work hard for years without ever coming up with a new idea." Based on my own experiences, I really don't think this applies to other social sciences very well at all. I'm not particularly familiar with psych papers, which may well be mostly based on text-on-text, but in all the social science disciplines…

> but in all the social science disciplines I am familiar with there's a great deal of focus on fieldwork and diving into the messy nitty-gritty of the actual world.

Can you give examples?

What I've seen is that questionnaires with high "validity" and "reliability" are put out to participants and then statistical tests are conducted to re-confirm significant results. However, these significant results typically do not mean that the results are practically useful. Maybe on average the results are significant, but the effect is too small to really be able to pick out individuals.