The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs • Hacker News Board

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#311

Post by glitchc » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 1:00 AM UTC

pavel_lishin wrote: post #264

glitchc wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's fine for most weird nerds. Being cordial and respecting of knowledge is all that's needed in the workplace. Most wns wouldn't make good friendship material either. Their opinions and tastes have a wide range from normal to rather eclectic. But without these people you will never be able to deliver the next new search paradigm. That's how they bring value and that's why the employer hires them. They also te…

> Being cordial and respecting of knowledge is all that's needed in the workplace. Yes - but a lot of Weird Nerds aren't willing to be cordial. I said in another comment that I think that one of the reasons they find their home online is because online, others can walk away from their comments when they need a break from them; something that's much harder to do at work, when you're face to face with them in a meeting…

When someone is not willing to be cordial, you don't have to be cordial in return.

> I wildly disagree that racism and sexism - especially if you were brought up in it - is something most people, especially weird nerds who have a very high opinion of their intelligence - "think your way out of".

I don't think we're disagreeing. Certainly the way we're molded in our formative years is hard to break out of. That wns tend to be freethinkers is also true, after all their differences in thinking are what set them apart from regular members of society. I'm positing that freethinkers have a much better chance of breaking the mold than regular people.

I'm not sure of your tone in this conversation though. Are you perhaps uncomfortable with individuals who think differently from you? That is often the root of intolerance my friend.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#312

Post by parineum » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 1:02 AM UTC

makeitdouble wrote: post #288

parineum wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You didn't use this word specifically but this whole conversation has the underlying prior of the "everything is a spectrum" mindset. In that context, everyone is neurodivergence because, afterall it's a spectrum we're all on and nobody is going to be deadest average. At some point we have to define at what point these spectrums become clinical. The kind of language you see in the DSM for stuff like this is "does it…

> At some point we have to define at what point these spectrums become clinical Thing is, I'm not a psychiatrist, the author probably isn't, most of us aren't. The question of whether it becomes clinical is IMHO irrelevant to most of us. We won't be standing in front of someone pondering whether they can apply for disability, the better question will be how comfortable they are at keeping eye contact for instance.

"We", as a society, are very much concerned with whether or not someone is eligible for various assistance programs.

We're redefining previously binary conditions as spectrums but the programs there to assist still available as a binary.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#313

Post by Kina » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 1:08 AM UTC

I agree with most of this story, but I really find the assertion that weird nerds are just autistic rather offensive and dismissive. It reminds me way too much of lazy teachers in the 90s insisting students they didn't want to manage were just suffering from ADD and hoping they could just get their parents to dope them up on Ritalin.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#314

Post by _yb2s » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 1:08 AM UTC

fdw wrote: post #216

_yb2s wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds to me like you probably are introverted, but might not be familiar with exactly what that means, or how neurodivergent is really is from much more common extroverted people. Most extroverts aren't ruthless machivellian self interested people like you are worrying I am claiming, but they are focused primarily on fitting in and being accepted by others- and do choose their activities and behaviors mostly base…

> or how neurodivergent is really is from much more common extroverted people. Do you mean to say that neurodivergence is more common among extroverted people? If so, do you have sources for that? I have not yet heard of any relation between extra- (or intraversion) and neurodiversity.

No, there is a typo in there, but my point is that being introverted is a type of neurodiversity.

I feel like people are usually just using the word to mean autistic, but there are many types of neurodivergence.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#315

Post by faeriechangling » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 1:08 AM UTC

majormajor wrote: post #299

faeriechangling wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Was it better for people to just be "weird" or "creepy" or "freaks" instead of somewhere on the autism-spectrum? How has autism diagnosis stopped any of this from happening? People are absolutely unapologetic about calling autistic men creepy in particular.

> How has autism diagnosis stopped any of this from happening? People are absolutely unapologetic about calling autistic men creepy in particular. It hasn't stopped it completely but now you've got a LOT more resources available to use to do something about it. And there are many more who will say something like "hey, you should look into this stuff" instead of just simply shunning and shaming than there were 40 year…

When I talk to autistic men there's often a huffy entitlement that being called creepy is a form of discrimination, since autism itself is seen as "Creepy" independent of any objectively or intentionally creepy behaviour, and spend their time self-victimising instead of thinking about how they could change to avoid creeping out others.

I see them get despondent that they have a disorder which means they can definitionally are socially impaired and always will be.

As for the parents and teachers causing kids to not be creepy, that mostly consists of them saying stuff like "mastrubrate in your room" and "don't tell strangers you want to have sex with them". There's not actually a competent make autistic people not creepy treatment that's in any way mainstream or widespread (Although if one existed I'd be all ears). If I had to suggest anything, it would be intensive immersion in social situations with neurologically typical people, which doesn't really take a diagnosis.

Like I just keep hearing these theories about how we need to diagnose people with autism to get them resources and treatment but I don't know what these things are. Honestly I see men getting into stuff like looksmaxxing stuff because they're convinced of stuff like their perceived "creepiness" being a result of them being ugly (evidence would support that ugly people are seen as more creepy), and at least something like plastic surgery offers them an evidence-based method to reduce perceived creepiness - which is something the medical system DOES NOT COMPETENTLY OFFER despite the medical system also telling them that they have social deficits. I think the neurosis's being caused by labelling and reification are already doing damage.

I think the thing that bothers me most about autism spectrum disorder is it's seen as a sort of life sentence which involves impairments which by definition are lifetime and you can never overcome, and if you fit these boxes, even if you have no significant problems, you're some successful married computer programmer, you are just fucked for life! Yet when I look at the actual research, I see children going from being clinically diagnosable with a disorder to sub-clinical all the time in followup studies. Yet all we really care about is getting MORE people diagnosed with autism spectrum disorder, as in, it should be our goal to have MORE people labelled as being impaired instead of LESS people because we did such a good job resolving their impairments and making them independent that they no longer had any significant difficulties or need for support or a "disorder" label anymore. Being disordered has become a fucking identity where the more people who have the identity the more we are saving people.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#316

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 1:36 AM UTC

neilv wrote: post #43

> Weird Nerds (I called them autistics, but people really hated that^2) [...] But it’s also hard to believe someone like her could ever become the most pleasant interlocutor at a dinner party, or the most socially adept and organized manager. The part about "organized manager" is surprising. If we're going to stereotypes, I would've guessed that a manager who was autistic would likely have being organized as one of t…

[deleted]

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#317

Post by megadal » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 1:52 AM UTC

woopwoop wrote: post #302

megadal wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article: > There is a strong anti-correlation between these interests ( that of course does not mean there is no one who is good at both. )

My point is not merely that there exist socially competent people who advance science at the highest level, but that I reject the claim that this is an anti-correlation. I do not think that scientific genius and social grace are anti-correlated, or antithetical.

I still think you're adding some nuance that isn't in the article.

The article is about how politicking is a requirement of success in academia. Schmoozing isn't social grace. It's closer to social engineering.

Social grace is having the grace to socialize without embarrassing yourself, you don't have to schmooze to do that. And yet it is often a requirement of politics.

Which is a requirement of success in academia.

Schmoozing is antithetical to science because science is the pursuit of the truth of the nature of things backed by tangible evidence. Science isn't supposed to show bias or favoritism.

Kind of hard to reject that notion. Though you could probably argue that schmoozing isn't necessary for politics. Most people would disagree though.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#318

Post by Dalewyn » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 2:03 AM UTC

bradleyjg wrote: post #145

akozak wrote: post #104

I have a lot of experience working with the weird nerd archetype and watching them navigate large orgs. First it's absolutely true that orgs that purport to support weird nerds will revert back to rewarding politicians. I've seen it happen, and typically has to do with who is doling out money. However, in my experience the vast majority of brilliant nerds way overextend themselves, and are much too confident outside…

However, in my experience the vast majority of brilliant nerds way overextend themselves, and are much too confident outside their domain. They're also much more likely to be jerks and will tumble from conflict to conflict until they get their way by attrition or status. Conflicts are strangely more personal because so much ego is tied up into it. They're more likely to assume they're right in every (non-tech/science…

>You have an employee that’s brilliant in technical area X but also has very strong and very wrong opinions about how the company ought to structure its cap table, pay its cleaning staff, and market to potential customers. He gets into constant arguments about these things. What do you do?

Call him to your office and warn him his behaviour is unacceptable as it is interrupting the business. If he still persists, fire him for insubordination and/or disrupting the workplace.

The difference between a master and a nerd is whether the talent is socially desired, and the difference between being employed and unemployed is whether you can be productive to society regardless of your personal leanings.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#319

Post by skulk » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 2:57 AM UTC

gavinhoward wrote: post #110

wyldfire wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the other hand, it is hard, and I secretly hope the industry can change so that people like me can have a place. In some ways, things are better than ever for folks like you. Starting and running a one-person business making software is feasible now but would've been much harder in decades past. > Second, I work alone on code that is entirely in my head. ... Rust is great for teams ... Unfortunately, industry ha…

> In some ways, things are better than ever for folks like you. Starting and running a one-person business making software is feasible now but would've been much harder in decades past. Yes, you are absolutely right. Unfortunately, I have been trying that and failing. I don't blame anyone for that either. > Unfortunately, industry has problems that are big enough that they're not easily solved with one person. So too…

I've seen your monorepo and it's definitely impressive. How are you going about acquiring clients though? It's not like I have any advice but I'm curious what you've tried.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#320

Post by faeriechangling » Mon, Jun 10, 2024, 3:00 AM UTC

alpaca128 wrote: post #297

faeriechangling wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good thing I see no to negative evidence that autistic men actually mask. Autistic women I see more evidence for. Also, saying "this deserves medicalisation" and throwing a label on people doesn't mean you're actually helping. Lets say somebody was masking - how would medicine help them?

Did you ask autistic men or how did you come to that weird conclusion? They likely mask just as much as women, even if you may not notice from the outside (which is the point of masking). I agree about medicine not really being the solution, though. If an environment requires masking all meds can do is suppress symptoms, at best.

CAT-Q survey results mostly, a screening tool designed to detect masking, and autistic men report masking a statistically insignificant less than neurotypical men. Autistic women report masking a statistically insignificant more than neurotypical women. But the women did report masking a significant amount more than the men.

Not strong evidence but what exactly is the evidence that autistics are going around masking far more than the average bear? Low social motivation is an old theory for the cause of autistic social behaviours which is a theory which would indicate less masking. I’ve heard all this mask mask mask talk over the last few years, but I haven’t seen any persuasive science.

I should also be clear - I’m not saying autistic men don’t mask, or don’t struggle with masking, I’m saying I can find no convincing evidence that autistic men as a group mask an unusual amount. The diagnostic criteria does not indicate masking as a symptom, just as a potential risk that may confuse diagnosis especially in women by making actual social deficits which actually get you diagnosed harder to detect but not impossible.