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The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

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Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genius would be a much worse term for what the author is describing because it explicitly doesn't come with trade-offs. The term needs to convey both the unique talents and the odd differences. "Nerd" has been the subject of a long and largely successful attempt at reclamation, to the point where people younger than a certain age don't generally consider it to be derogatory and comfortably identify with it. It's been…

Younger than what age? I think every age still generally considers "nerd" derogatory. Also, I think a genius would tell you the trade-offs only exist because most people are wrong. Calling them weird has the connotation that something is "wrong" with them, yet it seems quite the opposite is true. I could agree with the term "outlier" but not "weird".

The trend towards embracing it was already starting when I was a kid in the late 00's and early 10's, but it really picked up with the class of ~2016. The rise of the computer programmer as the highest ROI degree in this generation made a huge difference in perception of the word "nerd".

By the time I was helping with a local youth group in 2017 (14 year olds) the very extroverted ringleader of the group was a proud "nerd", by which he meant that he and his friends loved to play video games like Fortnite and had an aversion to sports.

Take a look at the highest voted entries in Urban Dictionary [0]. Obviously this isn't a scientific measurement, but it shows a strong subculture of self-identified nerds who embrace the label to some degree.

Edit: here's another source [1] that you may find more credible, from 2012:

> And the appropriation of the word "nerd" was a "battle that got won", says [Neil] Gaiman. "It's like many terms that were originally intended to offend, the team that was offended took it as its own as a badge of honour.

> "It's part of a cycle, that terms of abuse are turned around - in this case it has been socially turned around."

[0] https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Nerd

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20325517

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#182
weird nerds depend on a kind of nobility and magnanimity from the people they work with that is perhaps a bit much to expect in academia, or anywhere that isn't a high-growth environment where participants can afford the risks of eccentricity. middling people indexed on in-group status aren't equipped to handle exceptional people who don't reciprocate what is essentially corruption, and so they force them out.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#183

The author is missing a crucial pressure that pushes against weird nerds, the people that have to work underneath them. I’ve had to answer to a Weird Nerd when I was starting out in my field, it was the worst fucking experience of my life, and I’ve spent the years since warning people away from that person, their career and their contributions to their field have stagnated due to all the people like me that they burn…

I read the article as acknowledging this pressure by arguing that Weird Nerds should not be forced into people management positions. Without the workplace pressure on Weird Nerds to become people managers, would they still manage people? Maybe not. I can’t speak for academia, but in tech companies I’ve worked at I’ve seen a marked improvement in management when there’s a tech track for engineer advancement such that…

> Weird Nerds should not be forced into people management positions

Let's forget the Weird Nerds for a minute and look at the following situation: a person W is technically savvy enough to have accomplished a big chunk of project X. Say, 90%. And then there is a 10% left which takes as much work. So management hires people from a consultancy to pick up the 10%. Except that these guys don't write much code. They are adept at finding their way into technical management at light speed and want to push what should be their work back to W, while doing the bare minimum otherwise. Now W has more work than before, because he has been pushed into politics. At the very least, he will need to communicate to his colleagues that they need to pick up the slack for real. With some luck, W will find a nice way to do that, but that's the kind of problem he is ill-equipped to handle.

There is something in this article which is overlooked in these comments: people like Katalin Karikó are often under a lot of pressure to perform. They can have crippling debts, or be supporting an elderly parent or relative. Or fear something as life-wrecking as a deportation. They don't get the luxury of being "average", because there are more desirable "average" candidates than them: people who speaks with the right accent or in the right cultural code.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#184

I wish I had a source for it right now, but years ago I heard an anecdoate that Bell Labs had essentially dorms/hotels for scientists, where things like cooking and laundry were taken care of, so they could focus on their research. This had the effect of embracing those people who hadn't necessarily figured out how to be independent adults. As long as they were lucky enough to be identified and brilliant enough to be…

I don't think I believe that. Look at the top scientists of previous decades. They weren't incompetent idiot savants or man-children.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#185
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being married and gainfully employed and able to build and maintain relationships as well as hold conversations with strangers when necessary can come at an exceptionally high cost for neurodivergent people in the form of masking (like a kind of mental tech debt). Instead of overt social difficulty, this might present itself as anxiety, depression, and suicidality—those conditions are worthy of medicalization IMO.

I agree with what you're saying, but also - everyone has problems. Is anyone truly normal or neurotypical? Why do some people's problems get the validation of the medical system and others don't? (These are non-rhetorical questions, I'm really not sure about the answers to them myself)

> [...] everyone has problems

They certainly do. And I don't think we can make meaningful comparisons between individuals in terms of their problems, how they struggle or suffer, etc. For me personally, I don't assume to have it any worse than anyone else, and I always assume that others have deep challenges that I won't ever know about.

> Is anyone truly normal or neurotypical?

Again, these concepts become strained when applied to individuals. It's like the family who has 1.5 children: they don't exist. These are ever-changing labels that we make use of within an extremely nebulous social process. I try to apply them only in well-defined contexts and then throw up my hands in the general case.

> Why do some people's problems get the validation of the medical system and others don't?

I have no idea; in my mind this question is trying to peer closely into the nebula.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#186

The author is missing a crucial pressure that pushes against weird nerds, the people that have to work underneath them. I’ve had to answer to a Weird Nerd when I was starting out in my field, it was the worst fucking experience of my life, and I’ve spent the years since warning people away from that person, their career and their contributions to their field have stagnated due to all the people like me that they burn…

> I’ve had to answer to a Weird Nerd when I was starting out in my field, it was the worst fucking experience of my life, and I’ve spent the years since warning people away from that person, their career and their contributions to their field have stagnated due to all the people like me that they burned.

And in what way is Katalin Karikó responsible for your mistreatment? I doubt you would have said something similar about a black or gay former manager, attributing your mistreatment to their race or sexual orientation. But for some reason it’s perfectly acceptable to attribute it to a Weird Nerd personality.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At some point the question is “why?”. We can keep atomizing human variability into smaller, more graduated buckets of neurodivergence, but what’s the point, esp. for those that don’t really suffer negative impacts, and for which there isn’t really any remedy besides acceptance?

so that people can identify themselves as being part of a group, and then find others who are also part of that group, just to have a community for support. if I want to find a group of left handed pansexuals who are into Pokemon Go, the Internet facilitates finding your exact flock.

Seems to me like enabling further segregating people would be a negative thing. Eventually groups become so isolated that conflict is inevitable

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> assuming emotional intelligence isn't an innate skill it's a skill like any other, so if you put in dedication and practice, you can get better at it, just like practicing leetcode. whether or not an individual wants to do so is on them.

And like any other skill some people are more gifted in learning that skill than others. Anyone can learn to paint, but not everyone is going to be a Monet or a Rembrandt.

Everyone doesn't need to be a Monet, they just have to be able to paint their name on a poster without embarrassing themselves and putting down others.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#189

There is a similar parallel in the corporate world. Being involved with tech and software has never had less to do with actually being good at those things. I just remarked to my director the other day that the only innovation we have had in the org in the last 5 years was relentless self promotion, marketing, and branding. When did being known as an excellent and reliable engineer stop being “enough”.

> I just remarked to my director the other day that the only innovation we have had in the org in the last 5 years was relentless self promotion, marketing, and branding. What was your director’s response? Do you think there’s any chance you’re biased and blind to other innovations because you really dislike self-promotion, marketing, and branding?

They agreed, but we have a similar viewpoint on the overall technical excellence of the org, so that part is unsurprising.

I am definitely biased, but whether I am blinded to real innovation or progress is something I think about all the time.

I think I would not be opposed to the self-promotion, marketing, and branding were it in support of some significant achievement or accomplishment. Unfortunately we have a culture that seems to think showering and getting dressed in the morning is a noteworthy event.

To use a more concrete example, I ran a project to upgrade a significant piece of software in our environment that had been neglected for some time. The project went well and I moved on to more interesting work. I had multiple people tell me that we should promote it, give talks about how it was done, pound our chest about how hard of a project it was, etc. I refused. In my mind it was a normal upgrade of a system we were responsible for and frankly was disgraceful that it was in such a bad state of deferred maintenance. There was no way I would be comfortable “taking credit” for doing what should have been done years ago.

Fast forward a few years and another team responsible for doing a similar project is giving multiple presentations all around the org and all the way up to the 2nd in command of the company. I’m like wow, maybe we should have taken the opportunity when we had it to pretend like we are superheroes for doing the bare minimum of our job and not having a vendor drop our support contract.

Re: The Weird Nerd comes with trade-offs

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or plain just getting away with shitty behavior. Uncle Rick's a raging asshole and we still accept him as part of the family, which means so can I.

Usually people with an uncle Rick don’t want to become like him and are actually more self aware.

Except (young?) people are idiots and mistakenly think the bad behavior is the source of the genius rather than just hitching a ride.
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