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Indus Valley Civilization’s Collapse Explained

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Re: Indus Valley Civilization’s Collapse Explained

#2
The interesting submitted article refers to "and as-yet undeciphered writing," but there is considerable controversy about whether or not the Indus Valley script

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_script

is a writing system at all, rather than the kind of ornamentation from a pre-proto-writing stage known in several other sites of ancient civilizations. (As a reality check, we can remember that several regions of the world had elaborate empires and cities with extensive trade routes but without writing.)

Some of the controversy about this issue arises because of the extreme sensitivity of cultural heritage claims in south Asia in a region that spans a heavily militarized border. A good popular book about the nature and origin of writing systems in general, worldwide, is Visible Speech by John DeFrancis,

http://www.amazon.com/Visible-Speech-Diverse-Interactions-Co...

and the definitive compilation of international research on writing systems to the date of publication is The World's Writing Systems

http://www.amazon.com/Worlds-Writing-Systems-Peter-Daniels/d...

edited by Peter T. Daniels and William Bright and published in 1996. I haven't concluded absolutely that the Indus Valley Script could not be a writing system, but there is no sure evidence that it is, and the earliest attested writing system in a nearby region is the Brahmi script

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br%C4%81hm%C4%AB_script

that is much more recent in time (a few centuries older than the common era, that is approximately 2,300 years old) and unquestionably based on the scripts of the ancient Near East.

Re: Indus Valley Civilization’s Collapse Explained

#4
"They had cities ordered into grids, with exquisite plumbing, which was not encountered again until the Romans"

It's amazing how quite advanced technologies (for a civilization that thrived from 5000 to 3000 years ago) were mastered only to be lost later over the course of history.

A mind-blowing example closer to us is the Antikythera mechanism [1]. Found in a Mediterranean wreck in 1900, the artifact was not analyzed until the 1950s, when it was found to be "a mechanical computer designed to calculate astronomical positions" - except it was made in the first century BC.

Wikipedia notes that "Technological artifacts of similar complexity and workmanship did not reappear until the 14th century, when mechanical astronomical clocks were built in Europe."

It is the oldest known mechanical computer - and to my knowledge no comparable device was to be manufactured until the 17th century and the invention of the Pascaline [2]. That's 18 centuries of gap, right there.

The precision of the clockwork and the exactitude of the astronomical calculations made by the Antikythera mechanism only goes to show how much knowledge was lost in Europe after the fall of the Roman Empire. Progress does not always follow a straight arrow.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascaline

Re: Indus Valley Civilization’s Collapse Explained

#5
post #4

"They had cities ordered into grids, with exquisite plumbing, which was not encountered again until the Romans" It's amazing how quite advanced technologies (for a civilization that thrived from 5000 to 3000 years ago) were mastered only to be lost later over the course of history. A mind-blowing example closer to us is the Antikythera mechanism [1]. Found in a Mediterranean wreck in 1900, the artifact was not analyz…

It's amazing how quite advanced technologies (for a civilization that thrived from 5000 to 3000 years ago) were mastered only to be lost later over the course of history.

It's actually not (too) hard to imagine something like this happening again: the process (probably) starts with nuclear weapons and ends with something like A Canticle for Leibowitz: http://www.amazon.com/Canticle-Leibowitz-Walter-Miller-Jr/dp...

Re: Indus Valley Civilization’s Collapse Explained

#6
post #4

"They had cities ordered into grids, with exquisite plumbing, which was not encountered again until the Romans" It's amazing how quite advanced technologies (for a civilization that thrived from 5000 to 3000 years ago) were mastered only to be lost later over the course of history. A mind-blowing example closer to us is the Antikythera mechanism [1]. Found in a Mediterranean wreck in 1900, the artifact was not analyz…

There was a decent BBC documentary from last month which covered the mechanism and the attempts to decipher it. On my phone now so this is the closest link I can find: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17989915 but you can get to it from there :)

Re: Indus Valley Civilization’s Collapse Explained

#7

The interesting submitted article refers to "and as-yet undeciphered writing," but there is considerable controversy about whether or not the Indus Valley script http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_script is a writing system at all, rather than the kind of ornamentation from a pre-proto-writing stage known in several other sites of ancient civilizations. (As a reality check, we can remember that several regions of the…

Is there a real controversy over whether the Harappan script is writing vs. "a kind of ornamentation"? Your comment smacks of condescension but I'm sure you can just provide citations. Your (wikipedia) article contains some arguments based on relative frequency of symbols, but is controverted by studies of modern pictographic languages with similar characteristic (e.g. Chinese.)

http://www.sciencemag.org/content/324/5931/1165

You also mentioned the Brahmi script is "unquestionably based on the scripts of the ancient Near East". That is also news to me. Could you provide citations, please?

The real controversial implication, IMHO, of studying ancient Indian languages is that Sanskrit (used over thousands of years and refined by rigid grammar rules by e.g. Panini 500 B.C.) may actually be the language from which Latin, and hence many European Romantic languages, developed.

http://mutiny.wordpress.com/2007/02/09/sanskrit-mother-of-eu...

That's probably worth diving into, if you are genuinely curious. As the Welsh linguist Sir William Jones said,

"The Sanskrit language, whatever be its antiquity, is of a wonderful structure; more perfect than the Greek, more copious than the Latin, and more exquisitely refined than either, yet bearing to both of them a stronger affinity, both in the roots of verbs and in the forms of grammar, than could possibly have been produced by accident; so strong, indeed, that no philologer could examine them all three, without believing them to have sprung from some common source, which, perhaps, no longer exists."

[edit- link added and fluff redacted. :)]

Re: Indus Valley Civilization’s Collapse Explained

#8

The interesting submitted article refers to "and as-yet undeciphered writing," but there is considerable controversy about whether or not the Indus Valley script http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_script is a writing system at all, rather than the kind of ornamentation from a pre-proto-writing stage known in several other sites of ancient civilizations. (As a reality check, we can remember that several regions of the…

Wasn't there a mathematical study that concluded that the Indus script has the structure of a language? I found an article on it http://grimoires.wordpress.com/2009/07/20/grim-writing-the-i...

Re: Indus Valley Civilization’s Collapse Explained

#10
post #4

"They had cities ordered into grids, with exquisite plumbing, which was not encountered again until the Romans" It's amazing how quite advanced technologies (for a civilization that thrived from 5000 to 3000 years ago) were mastered only to be lost later over the course of history. A mind-blowing example closer to us is the Antikythera mechanism [1]. Found in a Mediterranean wreck in 1900, the artifact was not analyz…

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