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Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

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Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#161

Post by otteromkram »

neilv wrote: post #109

(Not an expert manager; just some thoughts based on things I've seen.) I can't tell from the description whether the candidate was outright deceptive, like claiming experience they didn't have, or candidate was just good at the normal interviewing rituals, and the real problem was mess-up on company's end (i.e., interviewers said "mediocre" but HR somehow heard "hire at all costs"). In any case, talk with appropriate…

> "Then, if the candidate seemed to be dealing in good faith, then probably talk with the employee, candidly, about the problem, and what options you're presenting."

I'm not pro-HR by any means, nor have I had to hire/fire a bunch of people, but the minute you hint that an employee could be terminated, there's a chance that they could take retaliatory measures.

Further, OP stated, "Essentially we had deficiencies in our technical interview that allowed for custom-fit preparation..." So, it doesn't seem like the candidate had "good faith" intentions from the start.

If OP is in the US, most states have an at-will employment clause, so a quick break isn't illegal by any measure (as long as they aren't terminating the employee for things like sex, race, religion, etc.).

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#162

Post by jononor »

marnett wrote: post #77
mikemitchelldev wrote: post #36

This is very strange that you're asking HN how to handle the situation. Who are the "We" that is running your company? Of course, if you're just posting something to generate some chat on HN that's fine, but if you actually need to ask the opinion of the HN community about what to do in this situation, then you have bigger problems.

It is perfectly acceptable to seek advice and opinions from a community you respect - not a problem whatsoever, it is a sign of making attempts at being the best leader one can be.

It can also be good to get input from people that do not have any stakes, worries or agenda. Plus that have a wider ser of experience (collectively). Of course one should also discuss it inside the company.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#163

Post by neilv »

otteromkram wrote: post #161
neilv wrote: post #109

(Not an expert manager; just some thoughts based on things I've seen.) I can't tell from the description whether the candidate was outright deceptive, like claiming experience they didn't have, or candidate was just good at the normal interviewing rituals, and the real problem was mess-up on company's end (i.e., interviewers said "mediocre" but HR somehow heard "hire at all costs"). In any case, talk with appropriate…

> "Then, if the candidate seemed to be dealing in good faith, then probably talk with the employee, candidly, about the problem, and what options you're presenting." I'm not pro-HR by any means, nor have I had to hire/fire a bunch of people, but the minute you hint that an employee could be terminated, there's a chance that they could take retaliatory measures. Further, OP stated, "Essentially we had deficiencies in…

If the candidate was dealing in good faith, then company should too.

The whole corporate-think "this person might do something evil, though we have no reason to suspect that, so we should do evil first" is wrong.

(I said talk with management and HR first; they might counsel or instruct differently, but you should make an effort to stand up for employee while you have the chance, before you potentially have to disagree and commit.)

If the candidate wasn't dealing in good faith, then, like I said, terminate.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#165

Post by brunoarueira »

anthomtb wrote: post #159
bob1029 wrote: post #8

We had one of these. Excellent interview, couldn't even handle explorer.exe on the other side. We fired them within the week. No one felt bad about it. Just do it and move on. The longer you drag it out, the worse it will get.

Out of curiosity, did you ever figure out the disconnect that caused: > Excellent interview to turn into > couldn't even handle explorer.exe. I had to deal with a similar situation. The size and scale of my employer at the time meant the employee stuck around for multiple years. They never got worse but sure never got better. In our case, the problem was that our interview questions were based on algorithmic knowledg…

My experience, mainly because when I was hiring through hunters and they participate on interviews, was to not take pre formulated questions and have questions based on the candidate resume, therefore I stress some points depending on the role.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#167

Post by koonsolo »

anthomtb wrote: post #159
bob1029 wrote: post #8

We had one of these. Excellent interview, couldn't even handle explorer.exe on the other side. We fired them within the week. No one felt bad about it. Just do it and move on. The longer you drag it out, the worse it will get.

Out of curiosity, did you ever figure out the disconnect that caused: > Excellent interview to turn into > couldn't even handle explorer.exe. I had to deal with a similar situation. The size and scale of my employer at the time meant the employee stuck around for multiple years. They never got worse but sure never got better. In our case, the problem was that our interview questions were based on algorithmic knowledg…

I also had this problem with hiring a front-end developer. Someone was really good at the theory, but practically couldn't handle himself.

I currently do a job interview where we start from a super easy app, and then I ask "how would you add feature X", then I go to the next (predefined) step.

The challenge of the test is that we run into certain problems. Some senior devs can foresee them, but most don't. Then the question comes "Why isn't this working and how to fix it".

I've done a crazy amount of interviews already, and this kind of job interview gives me the most confidence. I didn't have any false positives anymore.

You could see the test as "There is this junior that is stuck on something, can you help him out". I want my candidates to be able to deal with the weird shit, and in the end that requires a proper understanding of the underlying technology.

I don't like "take home" assignments, because you never know that someone's software dev spouse is sitting besides them.

We have a HackerRank test to first filter out the worst, and next stage is this interview I described. We use the same for both juniors and seniors.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#168

Post by IshKebab »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #147
strnisa wrote: post #81

The real mistake is not correcting a mistake when you see you've made one. It's always hard to let someone go, especially in a small company with a focus on personal development and a positive work environment. However, if you don't address this situation: 1) The morale of the company will likely decrease. 2) The productivity of the team will suffer. 3) Employees may start questioning the leadership's decisions. 4) S…

At the same time I kept thinking if they did fire the dev those 4 points you listed would happen. Damned if you do damned if you don’t.

I don't know, if they really are as bad as op says then I think most people would cheer them on.

I certainly appreciate seeing the occasional "we agreed it would be best for them to take a different path" emails from my company. Bit weird for them to send a global email for that tbh, but it really does send the message that they are actually responding to complaints and taking performance seriously, which is good.

In most companies in Europe it's incredibly hard to fire people even if they are bad at their job, and people know it. It's refreshing when managers actually do get rid of poorly performing employees.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#169

Post by nkmnz »

btasker wrote: post #121
nkmnz wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This proto-sociopathic behavior is the direct result of European employment law. It's disgusting.

No, it's the result of that poster's mindset - there's absolutely no need to do any of that. In fact, that type of behavior is against the law in a lot of countries and will leave the employer likely liable. If someone's under-performing whilst in their probation period getting rid of them is incredibly easy. Outside of the probation period there's a bit more of a process, but it's still not particularly hard - all y…

This is not true. It’s impossible to fire an employee for performance reason after the probation period in Germany. If an employee cannot deliver on the tasks assigned, they need to be assigned easier tasks. In order to risk your job you have to actively work against solving your skill gap, e.g. declining offers of upskilling.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#170

Post by pojzon »

jmkni wrote: post #43
shijie wrote: post #22

Irrationally, I always think that posts like this are about me in my own role at work. Thankfully, I’m not this out of my depth. My impostor syndrome has decreased by 6% today.

ha I was reading this as well thinking shit, is this about me?

Im happy there are comments like those, makes me feel Im not alone in this..
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