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Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

news.ycombinator.com

151–160 of 231 posts

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm wondering if it's possible, given the current job market climate, to spend way too long trying to get a job, in multiple rounds of interviews, and basically pigeonhole oneself into passing the interview but losing other skills that are pertinent to performing and keeping the job. The stories I keep hearing, about companies ghosting the applicant after 5-6 exhausting rounds of interviews, are scaring me, to be fra…

IMO, you don't lose a good engineering mindset or skills within a year or few months. Rusty, sure, but I'd say those skills quickly start to sharpen after working at a new job for a couple months.

> those skills quickly start to sharpen after working at a new job for a couple months.

Given the comments here, you don't have the couple months to unrust your skills. You will be deemed unfit after the first one and fired, the prevailing sentiment seems to be.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#153
post #50

Why it needs another 6-12 months to get them to be productive? Is it some system programming position? I can't imagine anything else that would require a year to get people into shape.

I think the belief that a 6 month bootcamp (or equivalent) is sufficient to create a competent developer even in "easy" domains like web is a big reason why most software sucks and why "impostor syndrome" is over-reported. Most 4 year degrees aren't even sufficient, as they just teach academic knowledge and "hacking" skills (as in "hacking your grades") that produce juniors that leave a massive wake of technical debt…

OP merely asks for being productive. It is a pretty wide range.

In fact, I'd argue that for anyone that knows some programming and in good GPA standing, 3 months is good enough for being productive. He can work on minor stuffs starting from 3 months.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#154
> The result is net-negative productivity.

There's a classic paper out there...

The Net Negative Producing Programmer by G. Gordon Schulmey

> We've known since the early sixties, but have never come to grips with the implications that there are net negative producing programmers (NNPPs) on almost all projects, who insert enough spoilage to exceed the value of their production. So, it is important to make the bold statement: Taking a poor performer off the team can often be more productive than adding a good one. [6, p. 208] Although important, it is difficult to deal with the NNPP. Most development managers do not handle negative aspects of their programming staff well. This paper discusses how to recognize NNPPs, and remedial actions necessary for project success.

(The early 60s may be a reference to (from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=421858 )

> Gordon Bell, architect of the DEC VAX wrote "High Tech Ventures" and included this section on NNP's

   Negative Productivity is a principle that I claim is worthy of a Nobel Prize. 
   Normal principles of productivity assume that workers create positive output. 
   Brooks refined the concept of software productivity to express it in terms of 
   the "mythical man month," and in software engineering, it is understood that 
   different programmers vary in their productivity by several orders of magnitude. 
   According to the principal of negative productivity, it is possible for an individual
   to produce bad results that others must then redo; hence, someone who is 
   very negatively productive can keep a whole team busy with damage control, 
   preventing the team from producing any output whatsoever.

Various locations of the paper - https://web.archive.org/web/20160305234708/http://pyxisinc.c... https://www.scribd.com/document/557220119/NNPP-Article

And here it is discussed at C2 - https://wiki.c2.com/?NetNegativeProducingProgrammer

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#155
Do also consider that if this was your mistake (which you say), and they quit their previous job or declined other offers because of your erroneous offer, then you might have done them harm by your error, at least ethically if not legally. Be sure to talk to your lawyer, and consider what obligations you have to them in parting ways, both legally and ethically.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#156
post #149

Mediocre rating and imposter syndrome but excelled in selling themselves? I don’t feel like this is the full story. What is the purpose of this ask? To receive validation and an excuse to go against some self perceived principles? If you look to let them go do it without requests for psychological support or pursuit of excuses. You are a human too and you deserve support, but in this situation, the other party will n…

Yeah this seems indeed missing details. It's not the candidate's responsibility to guess what the hiring manager is really looking for and kind of normal to get the best position possible. That said, the hiring process seems utterly broken if it wasn't possible to distinguish a junior from a senior.

edit: personally I think though that the company should take responsibility and make sure the employee either gets ramped up or a very smooth exit financially since the application probably meant he missed other options

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#157

Do you need to demonstrate to others this person's incompetence before you can let them go? You could put them on a project by themselves, with expectations on par with other senior devs. Let them provide you with the evidence you need to make your case.

Yeah, he's talking about team morale, so I guess he has to make sure that the team also thinks he's underperforming.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#158
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very true, ChatGPT makes it very easy to learn all the “domain-specific” knowledge, and makes the learning-curve less steep. Linux Kernel development is a fairly organized C software, it is no different than working on Chromium or Unity, or like any other large codebase. It used to be easy to get lost. However now, for only $20 you have an expert coder, sitting by your side (and this is what ChatGPT does), then…

I get the sneaking suspicion that you don't actually do this shit. ChatGPT isn't an expert coder sitting by your side. It's not even remotely close. Go ahead and get ChatGPT to walk you through how to implement even a non-novel CFD analysis that won't get you laughed out of the room. Get it to help you port an Ada Ravenscar runtime to an exotic (or even a not-so-exotic) processor. Try and have it generate non-trivial…

No need to get so upset ? It is like if I say that reading a book will help you learn faster about a domain than if you have to discover all by yourself.

Yes self-learning is better, but it takes a much longer period of time, whereas if you have a tutor, then it saves lot of time (and companies don't often have such resources, which is where AI and books fill the gap).

I strongly believe that LLMs are a serious helping tool for programming that helps programmers to onboard their project faster.

Regarding more exotic techs, as a cousin of ChatGPT, Google Gemini used to be very very bad, but with Gemini 1.5-Pro you can feed it very long documents, and this is super helpful for specific implementation (e.g. the exotic processors), and it's, really, really not bad at programming, or at least pushing you in the right direction.

Of course it's not autonomous (and whether it can be in the short-term on complex projects is unlikely), but it reduces the onboarding time, and this was the point raised in the conversation.

A dev paired with a LLM is much much more productive.

I suppose that you are concerned that it may push people to lose their jobs in the long-term. I am as well, but we still have some time ahead.

I don't like this situation either, but I have to recognize that it is a very helpful co-programming tool.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#159
post #8

We had one of these. Excellent interview, couldn't even handle explorer.exe on the other side. We fired them within the week. No one felt bad about it. Just do it and move on. The longer you drag it out, the worse it will get.

Out of curiosity, did you ever figure out the disconnect that caused:

> Excellent interview

to turn into

> couldn't even handle explorer.exe.

I had to deal with a similar situation. The size and scale of my employer at the time meant the employee stuck around for multiple years. They never got worse but sure never got better.

In our case, the problem was that our interview questions were based on algorithmic knowledge with some OS fundamentals. This person happened to be really good at those types of problems. But ask them to change a few lines of Python or Javascript and they just could not figure it out.

So the underlying flaw was assuming that anyone who could figure out algorithmic optimization in C++ (psuedo-code, we weren't looking for perfect syntax) under interview pressure would also figure out higher level languages, test frameworks, CI systems, etc, in an efficient fashion.

My simple solution was to push for a more diverse set of interview questions and interviewers. Actually, a "take home" style problem might have fleshed out these weaknesses but that was too radical, relative to the company culture, to even propose.

Re: Ask HN: How to handle a senior hire turning out to be junior?

#160
Not possible for somebody who knows what they are doing. I've aced technical interviews with zero prep where the leetcode I was writing was the first code I'd written in six months.

The bar is really, really low. You will have to step over it however.

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