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Alan Turing died 70 years ago

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Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#101

Post by advael »

rayiner wrote: post #73
advael wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea apparently it was so important to the government of Britain to dictate which consenting adults can fuck each other that they would force hormones and essentially permanent probation on a literal world-changing scientist and undeniable war hero over it I will never recognize a government's right to tell adults what they can do with their own bodies and other consenting adults, and it's insane that there are zero g…

Ideally, governments just enforce the collective will of the public. What can override that? For example, you cite this “principle of full bodily autonomy.” Is that a thing that exists? What’s your proof for it. It sounds like some religious concept, except for libertarians.

Proof? So you're telling me you don't understand what a "principle" is basically. I define autonomy exactly how I said it. Adults should be able to do with their own bodies as they see fit, including consenting to any and every act done with another consenting adult. I say adults here because I do believe carving out some small exceptions for people who aren't fully able to take care of themselves is necessary, but I also think minors should have way more rights than most governments give them, just not all of those we afford adults

The entire concept of "human rights" is premised on the idea that there are some principles that should override "the will of the people", which without any kind of protections of rights amounts to simple mob rule. I don't think you should get to lynch someone because the whole village doesn't like them, and I don't think the government should get to tell you what to do in the bedroom or what drugs you can take, regardless of what you can get a howling mob to think. I swear they don't teach people basic ethics these days. Or maybe it's just tech people? No wonder this industry's a garbage fire right now

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#102

Post by rayiner »

CalChris wrote: post #98
rayiner wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The more relevant portion is this: “As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his Divinity; tho’ it is a question I do not dogmatize upo…

No, the relevant portion of the letter was when Franklin eloquently added that he didn't want to apply his private religiosity to others. Nor as a Framer, did he. I do not accept your divine law drivel nor do I accept your people's law either/or. Instead, I would counsel you to re-read and meditate on the Preamble to the Constitution, especially that part where it says in Order to form a more perfect Union . That par…

> I do not accept your divine law drivel

But that's exactly my argument! Franklin's beliefs about "populism" are based on "divine law drivel"--God's law imposes limits on democratic law. If we reject that--which is exactly what I'm trying to do here--what basis do you have for saying that the people can't make whatever laws they want?

You're the one invoking supernatural concepts--this supernatural notion of "bodily autonomy"--not me.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#103

Post by rayiner »

advael wrote: post #101
rayiner wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally, governments just enforce the collective will of the public. What can override that? For example, you cite this “principle of full bodily autonomy.” Is that a thing that exists? What’s your proof for it. It sounds like some religious concept, except for libertarians.

Proof? So you're telling me you don't understand what a "principle" is basically. I define autonomy exactly how I said it. Adults should be able to do with their own bodies as they see fit, including consenting to any and every act done with another consenting adult. I say adults here because I do believe carving out some small exceptions for people who aren't fully able to take care of themselves is necessary, but I…

But who cares about your principles? Why should your non-falsifiable, non-scientific, non-empirical assertions about the nature of reality matter more than those of the mob?

You're just articulating a quasi-religious belief, and appointing ourself as the clergy of this quasi-religion, without admitting that's what you're doing.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#104

Post by temporarely »

graemep wrote: post #23
InfiniteVortex wrote: post #2

Interesting to note that the Justice Minister Lord McNally didn't consider a pardon appropriate, but the Queen eventually pardoned Turing after an outpouring of public support (and with the advice of the Government) [0]. (Turing was convicted for committing homosexual acts. Based on my cursory reading it seems like it was one of the reasons why he likely committed suicide. It's a tragic story of a great man, whom we…

It is far from certain that he committed suicide: https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-18561092 IIRC part of the coroner's reasoning is that "In a man of his type, one never knows what his mental processes are going to do next." So essentially they concluded it was suicide because something about Turing (gay? academic? gay academic?) was regarded as indicating instability. I very much doubt a coroner today wo…

It's possible he was considered a security risk. Turing must have been very upset to keep quiet about precedence in terms of discoveries. I wonder if Shannon got under his skin ..

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#105

Post by pwdisswordfishc »

ciiu wrote: post #61
telesilla wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind he was given hormones. As I'm from that half of the population who experiences hormone fluctuations but it's part of what women expect so we know about this and plan for it and support each other, I'd not be surprised if he was unaware of how his emotional state might be affected. Having said that, I'd like to see research on emotional states in male to female transitions, we should have plenty of data?

> Having said that, I'd like to see research on emotional states in male to female transitions, we should have plenty of data? According to subreddits that the MtFs use, it's mostly sexual arousal. "Euphoria boners" and suchlike.

Yeah but that's because "trans" is nothing more than a sexual fetish to these men. They objectify women and get off on it, using their own bodies to construct the erotic target.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#106

Post by advael »

rayiner wrote: post #103
advael wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Proof? So you're telling me you don't understand what a "principle" is basically. I define autonomy exactly how I said it. Adults should be able to do with their own bodies as they see fit, including consenting to any and every act done with another consenting adult. I say adults here because I do believe carving out some small exceptions for people who aren't fully able to take care of themselves is necessary, but I…

But who cares about your principles? Why should your non-falsifiable, non-scientific, non-empirical assertions about the nature of reality matter more than those of the mob? You're just articulating a quasi-religious belief, and appointing ourself as the clergy of this quasi-religion, without admitting that's what you're doing.

Cool analogy didja learn it in middle school english?

Seems everyone and their grandma wants to hold the torch of "rationality" and declare anyone who has an actual belief about something "dogmatic." It's intellectually facile and morally bankrupt

But no, fool, the principle of autonomy, or in this context that "the state shouldn't make decisions about what individuals can do to and using their own bodies" is not an arbitrary moral position, it's a meta-norm that has deep mechanism design implications in a functioning cosmopolitan society, ones that the balance of evidence suggest make that society work better for everyone except for the very lucky tiny percent of authoritarian busybodies that win the inevitable holy wars that come of structuring society around the premise that a state should be able to micromanage your individual life. I say that we have not achieved a state that truly doesn't meddle in this way (and one that are closest have in some senses backslid in the last century or so), but every move in that direction has produced both stability and prosperity

The very mindset you're espousing, that no one person's morals should determine the law, is a derived principle of enlightenment liberality. It's exactly why populism can't create a stable functioning human society

Liberality and consensual autonomy isn't a charter for total nihilist moral relativism and it doesn't call for every decision to be made by pure mob rule, it calls for government to act as a superstructure to allow democracy without lynchings and pogroms against political dissenters and laws against sex you don't like. It's a technology, not a religion

Moral nihilism doesn't imply that you're wise, it implies that you're spineless

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#107

Post by allsummer »

foldr wrote: post #90
allsummer wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law was enforced, but it seems Turing did not take it seriously. He was openly gay since university, complained the law was stupid, was unapologetic in court, and sought out "sex vacations" after his conviction.

You say (correctly) that there was a law against gay sex, and that this law was enforced, but also that Turing's prosecution and punishment under this law (after admitting to a police officer that he'd had gay sex) somehow had nothing directly to do with his being gay. I'm not quite sure how you square that circle.

There are laws against rape. Someone prosecuted and punished for rape has nothing directly to do with them being male or a sadist.

Being married is a hard prerequisite for being able to commit marital rape. You don't have to be gay to have gay sex that the authorities learn about.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#108

Post by foldr »

allsummer wrote: post #107
foldr wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say (correctly) that there was a law against gay sex, and that this law was enforced, but also that Turing's prosecution and punishment under this law (after admitting to a police officer that he'd had gay sex) somehow had nothing directly to do with his being gay. I'm not quite sure how you square that circle.

There are laws against rape. Someone prosecuted and punished for rape has nothing directly to do with them being male or a sadist. Being married is a hard prerequisite for being able to commit marital rape. You don't have to be gay to have gay sex that the authorities learn about.

But Turing was gay, and that’s why he had gay sex. You yourself described him as “openly gay”.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#109

Post by 082349872349872 »

defrost wrote: post #46
082349872349872 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

« Et tous les bourgeois du 16ème / Se demandent pourquoi je t'aime » What's the (north african?)-set movie to which Mika refers in this tube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MPtXUeUznY While I find my eyes and ear (même les américaines comprennent) caught by Mme Mac, and I wouldn't have the foggiest in what context "molly with a Dilly" might usually occur, the video and text make one suspect that MM. Doriand and Mik…

Hell of a tangent, near non contact but, FWiW I pretty sure it's a Sergio Leone film, many of which had sequences shot in Spain and some in North Africa (IIRC) - the blanket toss back is such a trope. The following piano man bars just prior to the singing are, to my ear, a definite riff on Moby's Extreme Ways that was repurposed for the Jason Bourne films. So bouncy .. does no one call back to Arthur Rimbaud anymore?…

Viktor Tsoi (XX): Солнце моё, взгляни на меня (my sun[shine], look at me)

Mark and Sam (XXI): Солнце моё, взгляни за меня (my sun[shine], spot for me)

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#110

Post by rayiner »

advael wrote: post #106
rayiner wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But who cares about your principles? Why should your non-falsifiable, non-scientific, non-empirical assertions about the nature of reality matter more than those of the mob? You're just articulating a quasi-religious belief, and appointing ourself as the clergy of this quasi-religion, without admitting that's what you're doing.

Cool analogy didja learn it in middle school english? Seems everyone and their grandma wants to hold the torch of "rationality" and declare anyone who has an actual belief about something "dogmatic." It's intellectually facile and morally bankrupt But no, fool, the principle of autonomy, or in this context that "the state shouldn't make decisions about what individuals can do to and using their own bodies" is not an…

> every move in that direction has produced both stability and prosperity

Theatrics aside, it seems like you’re saying that the basis of your “principle” is empirical effectiveness. That is of course a reasonable secular basis for lawmaking. But that confronts two problems:

1) That still doesn’t give you a justification for overriding the democratic will. Empirical effectiveness is evidence that you might submit to the public about what policies would be beneficial. That doesn’t transform it into some “meta-norm” that by its own force overrides democratic law.

We have tremendous evidence that market economies are better than planned economies. But only kooky right-wingers think that makes capitalism a “meta-norm” that must override the popular will!

2) Your historical analysis falls short. China’s rise shows you can become rich and prosperous without embracing bodily autonomy as a principle. Even moral regulation of individuals in the west was quite stringent during the period when the west was getting rich—moreso than societies that were less regimented but didn’t get rich. Victorian England, for example, was a high water mark.

Moreover, the societies that have gone the furthest in embracing notions of bodily autonomy are uniformly on the path to extinction. Western Europe is slowly being replaced by Muslims from cultures that reject such notions.

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