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D-Day, as told by paratroopers

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Re: D-Day, as told by paratroopers

#51

Post by cafard »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #17

Now the popular portrayal of WWII seems kind of idealistic, but there's plenty of historical evidence to suggest many Allied troops really did not want to be there, and the scale of desertion [1] was quite high - In addition to corruption, mismanagement, and racketeering [2]. I only really considered this after encountering "Deserter: The Last Untold Story of the Second World War" by Charles Glass in a used bookstore…

It seems to me that a deserter in the hands of the US military system was an asset that a) had undergone training, b) was on the action side of whatever ocean, c) must be made to understand that there were worse things than the front line. The retraining camps were brutal, I gather, but the only deserter convicted by a court martial and then shot, Eddie Slovik, had said outright that if returned to the line he would desert again.

And Joseph Heller was a veteran of WW II. The NY Times Magazine's issue for the 50th anniversary of VJ day included an essay by him. Some reservists were called back for Korea, but was he one of them?

[Edit: added qualified military system with "US".]

Re: D-Day, as told by paratroopers

#52

Post by baybal2 »

lukan wrote: post #31
racional wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bandera Ooh, scary. Here's the deal, though -- the guy is glorified by some people in Ukraine, but not in any official capacity at the national level. When an attempt was made to grant him official "Hero" status at the national level, it was rejected. The monument in particular is a local endeavor. Doesn't make Putin's war anymore justified Right, but the idea here seems to be to throw cold water on idea that Ukraine…

"Right, but the idea here seems to be to throw cold water on idea that Ukraine is unambiguously the victim of aggression here" Yes, that is Putins plan. That doesn't mean there isn't any truth in its propaganda. The point we are discussing is, if the war Ukraine vs Russia is "as black and white as it gets". To which I disagree, you can find quite some black elements in Ukraine, too. Not at all on the same level and I…

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Re: D-Day, as told by paratroopers

#53

Post by rufus_foreman »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #50
rufus_foreman wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Prior to the war Ukrainians' views on russians seemed way more friendly than the 'mainstream' american's views on mexicans. The 2019 "On Protecting the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the State language" law forbid the publishing of print media in Russian unless the same publication was available in Ukrainian, it forbid requiring Russian language ability for any job, it forbid Russian instruction in schoo…

The post I was responding to: "and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory." is complete BS. My reference regarding attitudes towards Mexicans was a response to that comment, not to the law you just mentioned. But what a weird argument you make. Canada has numerous laws like these in order to protect French speaker…

>> The post I was responding to: "and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory."

OK, now I am laughing.

The post you were responding to:

>> Also the russian language get supressed and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory.

Any reason you would leave out that first part? Seems sort of relevant does it not?

Re: D-Day, as told by paratroopers

#54

Post by dralley »

lukan wrote: post #19
multjoy wrote: post #11

Ukraine is about as black and white as it gets.

[flagged]

"Also the russian language get supressed"

99% of Ukrainians can speak Russian. This is like saying that the English language is suppressed in Ireland because there are certain efforts around trying to prop up the native language after centuries of attempted extermination by the local colonial power.

"general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory."

Russians are seen as enemies because all evidence suggests that they largely support, or at best do very little to oppose, the Russian state which invaded them, butcher and torture their countrymen.

Re: D-Day, as told by paratroopers

#55

Post by lukan »

ahartmetz wrote: post #49
rufus_foreman wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Prior to the war Ukrainians' views on russians seemed way more friendly than the 'mainstream' american's views on mexicans. The 2019 "On Protecting the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the State language" law forbid the publishing of print media in Russian unless the same publication was available in Ukrainian, it forbid requiring Russian language ability for any job, it forbid Russian instruction in schoo…

Uhm well, 2019 was after 2014. After 2014, Ukraine having some "issues" with Russia was pretty well justified.

Issues with Putin and his green men, yes. But why with the russian culture?

And I never claimed it qualifies as cultural genocide (like Putin does), but some Ukrainians want that.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ukrain...

Re: D-Day, as told by paratroopers

#56

Post by lukan »

_DeadFred_ wrote: post #50
rufus_foreman wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Prior to the war Ukrainians' views on russians seemed way more friendly than the 'mainstream' american's views on mexicans. The 2019 "On Protecting the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the State language" law forbid the publishing of print media in Russian unless the same publication was available in Ukrainian, it forbid requiring Russian language ability for any job, it forbid Russian instruction in schoo…

The post I was responding to: "and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory." is complete BS. My reference regarding attitudes towards Mexicans was a response to that comment, not to the law you just mentioned. But what a weird argument you make. Canada has numerous laws like these in order to protect French speaker…

"in general russians are seen as enemies"

My wording was indeed bad, what I meant was there is a general trend towards doing that, not that the majority already does it.

But the ukrainian Ultra Nationalist do. They are the black spot I am seeing. There are hardcore Nazis in my (german) home town - and they went to support their nationalistic comrades in Azow and co. They do not fight for democracy.

Re: D-Day, as told by paratroopers

#57

Post by _DeadFred_ »

rufus_foreman wrote: post #53
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post I was responding to: "and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory." is complete BS. My reference regarding attitudes towards Mexicans was a response to that comment, not to the law you just mentioned. But what a weird argument you make. Canada has numerous laws like these in order to protect French speaker…

>> The post I was responding to: "and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory." OK, now I am laughing. The post you were responding to: >> Also the russian language get supressed and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all…

Yes, because 'and' here indicates an additional point being made, which was the point I was responding to (notice I talked about Mexicans and not about spanish). Now please respond to my Canadian laws that protect and/or elevate the french language challenge to your assertion that there would be violence if Canada had laws that favored a specific language. Because Canada has just those very laws to protect French.

Re: D-Day, as told by paratroopers

#58

Post by lukan »

dralley wrote: post #54
lukan wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

"Also the russian language get supressed" 99% of Ukrainians can speak Russian. This is like saying that the English language is suppressed in Ireland because there are certain efforts around trying to prop up the native language after centuries of attempted extermination by the local colonial power. "general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nation…

"This is like saying that the English language is suppressed in Ireland because there are certain efforts around trying to prop up the native language after centuries of attempted extermination by the local colonial power"

I think it is a bit more then that:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine

Re: D-Day, as told by paratroopers

#59

Post by baybal2 »

thombat wrote: post #40
TheAlchemist wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true towards the end of the war, but in the beginning ? The US didn't join the war until they were attacked. Same goes for UK and France - they technically did declare the war when Poland was invaded - as there was a defensive agreement between the 3 countries - but in reality they didn't send any help.

What help could they realistically send? Poland was between the two nations that were invading it and the UK was only just introducing a bomber (Wellington) with the range for a direct return flight to Warsaw (and such a flight was impossible since it passes over Germany). Marine access means a long Baltic voyage past the main German navy bases. An assault on Germany would have been via the neighbouring countries and…

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Re: D-Day, as told by paratroopers

#60

Post by racional »

lukan wrote: post #56
_DeadFred_ wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post I was responding to: "and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory." is complete BS. My reference regarding attitudes towards Mexicans was a response to that comment, not to the law you just mentioned. But what a weird argument you make. Canada has numerous laws like these in order to protect French speaker…

"in general russians are seen as enemies" My wording was indeed bad, what I meant was there is a general trend towards doing that, not that the majority already does it. But the ukrainian Ultra Nationalist do. They are the black spot I am seeing. There are hardcore Nazis in my (german) home town - and they went to support their nationalistic comrades in Azow and co. They do not fight for democracy.

There are hardcore Nazis in my (german) home town - and they went to support their nationalistic comrades in Azow and co

So you base your view of what's going on in Ukraine not from talking broadly to Ukrainians; not from an objective reading of history and news reports -- but on what the Nazis in your hometown are saying?

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