Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app • Hacker News Board

Re: Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app

#61

Post by paul9290 » Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 5:26 PM UTC

enko wrote: post #56

paul9290 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This idea/service needs to sold to HR departments who are seeking developers. As someone who hires I want to know what they can do vs what they say they can do. When I hire I ask job applicant to cut up and code a PSD. Some refuse while the eager ones whom are really serious and are excited about the job happily do so. Overall it's good practice and we give each applicant feedback on how to improve. The flip side all…

> I ask job applicant to cut up and code a PSD You judge job applicants by their willingness to jump through boring scut work hoops in the hope of getting a job? I don't know what you're optimising for there, but it certainly isn't programming talent. I've known a few C-class bumblers who would probably do that for a job interview. The number of grade-A talented engineers, the people I would want to hire, who would p…

These tests are for a web design and branding agency.

There are tons and tons of resumes and the shop is not located in a huge metropolitan area like San Fran, NYC, Chicago, etc.

Re: Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app

#62

Post by mrkmcknz » Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 5:27 PM UTC

Apreche wrote: post #13

Want to work here? Do work for us for free! Then maybe we'll hire you afterwards. Great idea if you want to hire suckers.

Didn't YC fund a company doing something similar to this in the last cycle?

I think it had a Goldman Sachs co founder and another business development guy. Reached Tech Crunch some time in the last 6months.

That received some pretty harsh comments for precisely the reason you mentioned. This is a easy way to game developers and have a couple of hours free consulting.

Re: Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app

#63

Post by aaronblohowiak » Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 5:28 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #53

Isofarro wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This trend in our field is really making me uncomfortable. Judge me on what I know and what I did before, no more, no less." You are uncomfortable in demonstrating your knowledge in a practical way? I don't understand. You are looking for a role doing web development, which requires up-to-date knowledge not just of techniques, but of understanding. These code exercises make an excellent starting ground for a technic…

> You are uncomfortable in demonstrating your knowledge in a practical way? The concern is potential employers trying to bilk free work out of developers. The small project strategy is hardly fool-proof either. If it becomes widespread, we'll just see phony developer put their assignments up on rent-a-coder and ask for a crib sheet to study so they can withstand a technical interview on what they've created. Anecdota…

>The concern is potential employers trying to bilk free work out of developers.

This is why the "assignment" that I request takes less than two hours and is a greenfield project that is not going to be used by the company -- and I tell candidates this up-front. Think something like a blog, recipe manager or to-do list app. It is trivial, but you may be surprised at the range of outputs that you get.

What is interesting to me is how the resume isn't the best indicator for how well they will do on the coding project. Also, to avoid wasting people's time, I give the coding project as late in the interview process as possible, assuming the other filters have been passed.

Re: Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app

#64

Post by Estragon » Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 5:30 PM UTC

ksat wrote: post #4

LiquidSummer wrote: post #3

Interesting idea, but what stops me from just writing the content instead of programming it?

A Few things: 1) For some requests, the correct response can be hidden and just reply 'pass' or 'fail'. 2) You can use javascript to randomize the requests. For example create a random expression and ask it to be evaled 3) Candidates submit the code after completing the challenge. Thanks for checking out!

The intro video would benefit by demonstrating this. I had the same question.

Re: Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app

#65

Post by Isofarro » Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 5:31 PM UTC

spamizbad wrote: post #53

Isofarro wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This trend in our field is really making me uncomfortable. Judge me on what I know and what I did before, no more, no less." You are uncomfortable in demonstrating your knowledge in a practical way? I don't understand. You are looking for a role doing web development, which requires up-to-date knowledge not just of techniques, but of understanding. These code exercises make an excellent starting ground for a technic…

> You are uncomfortable in demonstrating your knowledge in a practical way? The concern is potential employers trying to bilk free work out of developers. The small project strategy is hardly fool-proof either. If it becomes widespread, we'll just see phony developer put their assignments up on rent-a-coder and ask for a crib sheet to study so they can withstand a technical interview on what they've created. Anecdota…

"The concern is potential employers trying to bilk free work out of developers."

If the coding exercise looks like something that is of this sort, then I guess consider whether you want to work with that employer. From an employer perspective, this is the worst source of getting something built.

A candidate should be researching the companies submits his resume/CV too anyway.

"If it becomes widespread, we'll just see phony developer put their assignments up on rent-a-coder and ask for a crib sheet to study so they can withstand a technical interview on what they've created."

If that were feasible, I'd suggest the employer would much rather hire the rent-a-coder instead of the one paying him. That's a win for the employer there too, since they'll be able to offer the rent-a-coder guy far more than the scratchings he gets as a rent-a-coder. The ability to predict in advance a sufficient range of questions as to forearm a candidate will border on the mystic.

Coding exercises aren't a mouse in a maze puzzle, they are a starting point for gauging web development ability.

The companies that use coding challenges as a way of creating production ready material are going to be amply supplied by the rent-a-coder approach you outline. And the technical interview part of the test is probably geared with a formulaic approach that can be guessed. In that case, this candidate and that employer are well matched.

But not every candidate needs a rent-a-coder to pass a technical test, and not every company uses those tests to create production ready websites and applications.

A good candidate can sniff a bad employer just as well as vice versa. If a company seems to be asking for production ready material, then walk away. If the test seems on the up, you'd better have a very good reason for refusing.

Re: Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app

#66

Post by dpcan » Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 5:34 PM UTC

huhtenberg wrote: post #60

I first posted a snarky comment saying how this is spec work and what not. I then looked closely and deleted it, because it's not a spec work. Your description - Recruit web developers by having them build a web app should really be this instead - Recruit web developers by having them build a TEST web app You have to be very careful with how you describe your service. You are an inch away from a much despised domain…

Or, hire a web developer by having them PROVE they have what it takes.

Or, hire a web developer with too little work experience to have any previous examples of what they can do, but still have them somewhat prove they have the appropriate technical knowledge at least handle the job ......... or something like that.

Anyway, if I had to run a developer through a test like this, I probably wouldn't be talking to him in the first place honestly. I tend to contract with people based on what I've already seen them do.

I understand that getting started is hard too, so hopefully some new developers will find themselves using this tool and it will help them get new jobs and build that portfolio.

Re: Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app

#67

Post by trentmb » Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 5:37 PM UTC

Isofarro wrote: post #48

why-el wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. This trend in our field is really making me uncomfortable. Judge me on what I know and what I did before, no more, no less. Or, to make this even more futile, how about I ask the company to build a small app for me? Since I also want to know if I should work for them. If they think their main business is enough to judge them, then my past experience is equally enough. This is bordering ridiculing in…

"This trend in our field is really making me uncomfortable. Judge me on what I know and what I did before, no more, no less." You are uncomfortable in demonstrating your knowledge in a practical way? I don't understand. You are looking for a role doing web development, which requires up-to-date knowledge not just of techniques, but of understanding. These code exercises make an excellent starting ground for a technic…

"You are uncomfortable in demonstrating your knowledge in a practical way?"

Isn't that what his past projects and employment demonstrate?

Re: Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app

#68

Post by GoodIntentions » Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 5:46 PM UTC

OK as someone looking for employment, I feel ambivalent about this and probably would pull the plug on the process if you asked for non trivial work from me. I understand the need to weed out applicants that lack skills. This can and should be done by technical screening conducted by qualified individuals.

FWIW this opinion is based on experience. I've conducted more interviews than I have given. As an applicant I once went through a fairly lengthy interview process that first did a screening interviews including live coding exercises. They were conducted and critiqued in real time. I have no issue with these. You can either do what you say, or you can't and it becomes apparent fast.

The next stage is where I started to question the company's processes - They requested a small "project" followed by an interview. I _nearly_ pulled the plug on this, since it was a request for 10+ hours coding, but did it anyway.

The next interview involved a fairly in depth defense of my code and design choices, white board work that again put my skill set to the test real time. After several hours of this, I was requested to do another "small project" and I walked away.

TL;DR Ask me a million questions, put my skills to the test on the spot, but don't ask free work... I'll think you're unable to judge my skill/confused/a scammer or whatever.

Re: Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app

#69

Post by ksat » Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 5:57 PM UTC

GoodIntentions wrote: post #68

OK as someone looking for employment, I feel ambivalent about this and probably would pull the plug on the process if you asked for non trivial work from me. I understand the need to weed out applicants that lack skills. This can and should be done by technical screening conducted by qualified individuals. FWIW this opinion is based on experience. I've conducted more interviews than I have given. As an applicant I on…

+1 and Agree. It's wrong to get free work. However, just out of curiosity how would you have felt if the employer has actually paid you for those "small projects"? (To be clear: No guarantee that you will get the Job, but payment is guaranteed for the hours you put in)

Re: Show HN: Recruit web developers by having them build a web app

#70

Post by Isofarro » Sun, Jun 03, 2012, 5:58 PM UTC

trentmb wrote: post #67

Isofarro wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This trend in our field is really making me uncomfortable. Judge me on what I know and what I did before, no more, no less." You are uncomfortable in demonstrating your knowledge in a practical way? I don't understand. You are looking for a role doing web development, which requires up-to-date knowledge not just of techniques, but of understanding. These code exercises make an excellent starting ground for a technic…

"You are uncomfortable in demonstrating your knowledge in a practical way?" Isn't that what his past projects and employment demonstrate?

No. Past projects are typically not solo projects, so it's hard to establish who did what. We're hiring a developer for what he can do, not for what other people in his team did.