Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem • Hacker News Board

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#821

Post by sdfgtr » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 3:21 PM UTC

Aurornis wrote: post #358

rudnevr wrote: post #264

I live in Spain and own property in Spain. There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. Eve…

> There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in t…

> Even here on HN there are comments trying to downplay the issue by portraying the victims as mostly wealthy or landlords, which are presumably acceptable victims to people who like these kind of narratives.

After skimming some of the comments here I'd even go so far as to say that it's the majority of the comments here.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#822

Post by atlantic » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 3:25 PM UTC

madaxe_again wrote: post #803

atlantic wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true. The buyers of real estate on a large scale are often transnational investment funds. And they sometimes sit on empty properties for decades, waiting for them to accrue value. Some kind of regulation is certainly required. Or higher taxation of second homes. But squatting contributes nothing to solving this problem. It just promotes anarchy.

For every buyer there is a seller. Are we to understand that the sellers are being forced to sell, and aren’t being paid? Because otherwise it sounds awfully like foreign capital is flowing into the economy, which is hard to describe as a disaster.

You know, sometimes things look good on a macro scale, but not at the personal level. Both perspectives need to be considered.

I live in southern Europe. If I look out of my window, the tall buildings in front are about 80% shuttered all year round. At the same time, there is an acute shortage of housing in this area. Many families who have been here for generations are moving out, because real estate prices are too high, for both renting and buying.

I can't help feeling something is very wrong, despite the abundance of foreign capital. What do you think?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#823

Post by kjkjadksj » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 3:26 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #614

Aurornis wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in t…

> It’s more fun to imagine these people as noble warriors against an unjust society, rather than seem them as people abusing the laws for personal gain at the expense of random victims. Allow me to present a third option: maybe these people aren't noble warriors, they're just victims of an unjust society trying to meet their basic human need for housing. People like your friend are certainly unjustly harmed in this s…

If you don’t have your basic needs met there are options beyond squatting and exploiting laws surrounding it. I’m sure Spain has public services that are much better than the US if the train network is any proxy for effective governance. There’s presumably training opportunities to upskill both formal and informal. All this to say the person who is squatting is probably not someone who lacks any other option but someone who is exploiting a condition and potentially tied to organized crime to boot.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#824

Post by atlantic » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 3:27 PM UTC

orthecreedence wrote: post #555

atlantic wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true. The buyers of real estate on a large scale are often transnational investment funds. And they sometimes sit on empty properties for decades, waiting for them to accrue value. Some kind of regulation is certainly required. Or higher taxation of second homes. But squatting contributes nothing to solving this problem. It just promotes anarchy.

> But squatting contributes nothing to solving this problem. Hang on, it actually does solve the housing problem by one important metric: an empty house has someone living in it now. I understand there are other metrics (cost to the owner) but it does do something to solve part of the problem, and I'd argue that the more a property is used as an invesment vehicle (sitting there collecting dust) the more it solves the…

Your metrics are wrong. The measure is not so much how many houses are occupied, as how many houses are occupied by local working people (as opposed to tourists / hippies / anarchists).

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#825

Post by kjkjadksj » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 3:29 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #534

redeeman wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im amazed your friend didnt come up with a swift solution, and what would the squatters do? call police and say they were squatting? show their rental agreement?? wouldnt have happened to me

Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. The "swift" solution would send you to jail in mere hours. You're presumed guilty. Yes, it defies any logic, but that's the way that it is. My mom's husband had rented his previous flat (to complement his pension) to two women. They were working, very "normal" persons, and the contract specified that no other person could live there. One of them started dating a…

What stops you from showing up with a locksmith and a few hired security paid to just throw their stuff out of the house onto the street and then change the locks? Thats how they do it in the US.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#826

Post by kjkjadksj » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 3:32 PM UTC

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote: post #714

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having a free shelter is fundamental to a person's freedom, arguing otherwise is immoral.

I actually lived in a country where everyone had a right for free shelter. It was called the USSR. The quality and quantity of said shelter was beyond abysmal. Several families sharing a single apartment, a family per room, was the norm. If anyone attempted to squatter anywhere, they would very quickly find themselves free sheltered in Gulag. If they were to argue for their rights against oppression and exploitation,…

What is ironic is that I’ve people living like that in the US too. I once lived in a building with a lot of immigrants from different parts of the world. I once got a glance in a living room walking down the hall: two bunks in the living room dozens of people inside. Another apartment was a studio apartment shared by two guys whose main source of income seemed to be charging lime scooters in the apartment. They’d be hauling scooters in and out all day.

So maybe things wouldn’t be that different at all for the poorest of this country but they’d not have the boot of monthly rent pinned on their neck.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#827

Post by zxspectrum1982 » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 3:39 PM UTC

kaskakokos wrote: post #419

Aurornis wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in t…

Living in Spain, I have friends from both ends of the spectrum: those speculating with houses and those who cannot afford to buy one. We can blame the okupas, calling them lazy if that suits you. But we are missing half the story if we don't consider the other end of the spectrum: people buying property purely for speculative investment. For example, consider the housing crisis in Majorca [1]. Since we have enough mo…

Housing is expensive because: 1. Progressive governments making incredibly difficult and expensive to build houses, apartments, etc. - E. g. I'm trying to build a house since SEVEN YEARS ago. Do you know what's the financial cost of having the land sitting there for 7 years? Who do you think is going to pay for that? Not me: it will be whoever buys that house. - E. g. the 2023 Housing Law making mandatory to offer 40% of the housing a lower prices. Since construction costs are fixed and very well-known by now, who do you think is going to subsidize that 40%? Correct: the other 60%.

2. Rental prices are up, and will be even higher, because landlords have no protection against quatters and default tenants. I have suffered the problem myself: I put out for rent the apartment were I used to live until a few years ago and the tenants only paid for the first month. Then it took me 18 months to kick them out. That apartment will not for rent until the law changes. There's MILLIONS of apartments in Spain like that. Protecting the landlords (eg kicking squatters and defaulters in 2 weeks instead of 2 years) would make one million apartments available immediately, bringing prices down.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#828

Post by zxspectrum1982 » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 3:41 PM UTC

kerkeslager wrote: post #616

solids wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe the housing crisis is related to the lack of legal security that owners have, which severely reduced the offer and obviously increased the prices. The housing law that the current government passed wasn’t very clever…

Wait so lack of legal security reduced supply... by what mechanism? How do you think this works?

Pal, you don't understand how the market, or even real life, works.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#829

Post by zxspectrum1982 » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 3:43 PM UTC

kjkjadksj wrote: post #825

narag wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, but you have no idea what you're talking about. The "swift" solution would send you to jail in mere hours. You're presumed guilty. Yes, it defies any logic, but that's the way that it is. My mom's husband had rented his previous flat (to complement his pension) to two women. They were working, very "normal" persons, and the contract specified that no other person could live there. One of them started dating a…

What stops you from showing up with a locksmith and a few hired security paid to just throw their stuff out of the house onto the street and then change the locks? Thats how they do it in the US.

In Spain, that would put you (the rightful owner) in jail and the judge would tell you to give the keys to the squatter. Yes, it's that crazy.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#830

Post by zxspectrum1982 » Fri, Jun 07, 2024, 3:46 PM UTC

pimterry wrote: post #277

rudnevr wrote: post #264

I live in Spain and own property in Spain. There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. Eve…

> It's not a small problem, there's like 12K cases per year last time I checked. https://maldita.es/malditateexplica/20221026/datos-okupacion... has the actual data (in Spanish): * 10-17k cases of occupation annually (rising until 2021, but down in 2022 and further down in 2023: https://www.cronista.com/espana/actualidad-es/adios-okupas-c... ) * Of those ~15k, 5% are actually occupation of somebody's residence (allan…

Maldita is a joke. Sometimes they don't know how to read data, other times they actively engage into twisting numbers. Every time they debunk something, you can be sure that they debunked is actually true. I remember a case where the claim was something like "there's 300.000 cases of " and they debunked it with "FALSE, bla bla bla bla bla"... and when you read the fine print, it was not 300.000 cases but 298.000 cases. They are 1000% unreliable.