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Alan Turing died 70 years ago

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Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#31

Post by willvarfar »

defrost wrote: post #14
delichon wrote: post #4

What would justice have looked like for Alan Turing for his war contributions? I'm tempted to say that we should have showered him with our highest honors, that Britain should have made him a duke and a billionaire out of gratitude, and he should have had drawers full of keys to the great cities of the world. But none of that could have meaured up against just leaving the poor guy alone to pursue his own thoughts and…

What reward then for Bill Tutte who actually cold cracked a harder cipher than the one Turing supposedly cracked (He built upon earlier work by the Polish group who also made the first Bombes). What reward for Tommy Flowers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._T._Tutte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Flowers I like Turing, I like his work, but he was by no means the only genius at Bletchley.

Celebrating the less well known code breakers, an incomplete list includes

Arne Beurling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arne_Beurling, a Swede who cracked the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siemens_and_Halske_T52

Hugh Foss https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Foss who first cracked the early commercial variants of Enigma back in 1927

Gordon Welchman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_Welchman ... argh where to start? :D

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#32

Post by willvarfar »

scoopertrooper wrote: post #29
defrost wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What reward then for Bill Tutte who actually cold cracked a harder cipher than the one Turing supposedly cracked (He built upon earlier work by the Polish group who also made the first Bombes). What reward for Tommy Flowers? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._T._Tutte https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tommy_Flowers I like Turing, I like his work, but he was by no means the only genius at Bletchley.

Not as widely remembered, but it sounds like those two did a bit better than Turing. They both died of old age after successful careers in their respective fields.

That makes it sound like a game. I don't think they would have viewed it that way?

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#33

Post by blue_light_man »

delichon wrote: post #4

What would justice have looked like for Alan Turing for his war contributions? I'm tempted to say that we should have showered him with our highest honors, that Britain should have made him a duke and a billionaire out of gratitude, and he should have had drawers full of keys to the great cities of the world. But none of that could have meaured up against just leaving the poor guy alone to pursue his own thoughts and…

You assume Alan Turing actually cares about what a bunch of British politicians think of him and the award they choose to give him.

You believe he cares about external validation and things like awards.

You believe he cares about being a billionaire.

You are more or less projecting your beliefs and ideas on what a successful life is on him.

Alan pursued truth throughout his life. Not external validations. He was a scientist not a politician or celebrity or a wannabe make world better startup founder.

Only truth could have set him free. And I hope he found his truth.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#34

Post by EnigmaFlare »

ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #13
croes wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back then it was perfectly aligned. Homosexuality was seen as a perversion in the public eye.

> Homosexuality was seen as a perversion in the public eye. Possibly, but the law was criminalising what happened in private. There's a big difference between prudish laws that ban public displays and intrusive laws that govern what consenting adults do in private.

We're not on the good side of some clear morality dividing line. Plenty of consensual private actions are illegal today. The most obviously similar one is incest. But there's also consensual violence and euthanasia, as well as all the things you're not allowed to have on your computer, even if you created them yourself in some western countries.

People seem to thing us moderns are more moral but we're not really, we just changed our morals so other cultures look immoral in comparison - and we look immoral in comparison to them too.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#35

Post by 082349872349872 »

defrost wrote: post #20
qsort wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reasoning is interesting though. I don't necessarily agree with it but it's not "lmao gay". A posthumous pardon was not considered appropriate as Alan Turing was properly convicted of what at the time was a criminal offence. He would have known that his offence was against the law and that he would be prosecuted. It is tragic that Alan Turing was convicted of an offence that now seems both cruel and absurd—partic…

> He would have known that his offence was against the law and that he would be prosecuted. That specific bit of reasoning is very likely wrong. The circumstances of Turings investigation and arrest started with Turing going to the police to report that had been robbed by a person considered to be a rent boy. If he had the slightest notion of how homosexual behaviour was dealt with by the regular police and that he w…

« Et tous les bourgeois du 16ème / Se demandent pourquoi je t'aime »

What's the (north african?)-set movie to which Mika refers in this tube? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MPtXUeUznY

While I find my eyes and ear (même les américaines comprennent) caught by Mme Mac, and I wouldn't have the foggiest in what context "molly with a Dilly" might usually occur, the video and text make one suspect that MM. Doriand and Mika tended to foreground the other characters (do long guns imply rough trade?).

[come to think of it, an odd bent would probably have been a career advantage at Bletchley, in that one might have been already habituated to picking up on metadata during traffic analysis?]

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#36

Post by allsummer »

foldr wrote: post #26
allsummer wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His death was consistent with both suicide and accident. He left no note, so the reasons for why he likely committed suicide are not clear. His nephew suggests it was "boyfriend trouble" and his friend said he had underwent the "treatment" in good spirits. Turing, on the advice of his lawyer, plead guilty and opted for chemical castration himself. Of all the men in history charged with "gross indecency", Turing was t…

> He was not castrated for being gay, but for a relationship with an Eastern European 19-year old homeless man, and getting his house broken into, while having a security clearance and access to secret information. Not sure what point you’re trying to make here. His chemical castration was a condition of his probation following his indecency conviction, and had nothing directly to do with his security clearance.

I'm fine with Turing being a hero or a role model. But people are now writing that Turing was castrated for being gay.

> following his indecency conviction, and had nothing directly to do with his security clearance.

It had nothing directly to do with his being gay. You can be gay without starting relationships with homeless boys and getting your house broken into, exposing yourself to blackmail or coercion.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#37

Post by dxdm »

allsummer wrote: post #21
InfiniteVortex wrote: post #2

Interesting to note that the Justice Minister Lord McNally didn't consider a pardon appropriate, but the Queen eventually pardoned Turing after an outpouring of public support (and with the advice of the Government) [0]. (Turing was convicted for committing homosexual acts. Based on my cursory reading it seems like it was one of the reasons why he likely committed suicide. It's a tragic story of a great man, whom we…

His death was consistent with both suicide and accident. He left no note, so the reasons for why he likely committed suicide are not clear. His nephew suggests it was "boyfriend trouble" and his friend said he had underwent the "treatment" in good spirits. Turing, on the advice of his lawyer, plead guilty and opted for chemical castration himself. Of all the men in history charged with "gross indecency", Turing was t…

> He was not castrated for being gay, but for a relationship with an Eastern European 19-year old homeless man, and getting his house broken into, while having a security clearance and access to secret information.

Assuming this is true (I don't know), would a heterosexual man have received the same punishment? In any case, it seems pretty cruel and unusual to me.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#38

Post by EnigmaFlare »

newswasboring wrote: post #11
croes wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back then it was perfectly aligned. Homosexuality was seen as a perversion in the public eye.

I think OP was talking about real morality, not perceived.

There's no such thing. All actions have consequences for other people, so any system of morality includes trade-offs where someone is disadvantaged for the sake of someone else.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#39

Post by freedomben »

EnigmaFlare wrote: post #34
ndsipa_pomu wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Homosexuality was seen as a perversion in the public eye. Possibly, but the law was criminalising what happened in private. There's a big difference between prudish laws that ban public displays and intrusive laws that govern what consenting adults do in private.

We're not on the good side of some clear morality dividing line. Plenty of consensual private actions are illegal today. The most obviously similar one is incest. But there's also consensual violence and euthanasia, as well as all the things you're not allowed to have on your computer, even if you created them yourself in some western countries. People seem to thing us moderns are more moral but we're not really, we…

Indeed. One of the most criminalized things today is taking any sort of drug (besides alcohol, and now cannabis in many places) even in the privacy of your own home where nobody else even has to know.

Re: Alan Turing died 70 years ago

#40

Post by scoopertrooper »

willvarfar wrote: post #32
scoopertrooper wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not as widely remembered, but it sounds like those two did a bit better than Turing. They both died of old age after successful careers in their respective fields.

That makes it sound like a game. I don't think they would have viewed it that way?

I think you and the person I was replying to missed the second part of the other comment, which I believe to be the main point: "But none of that could have meaured up against just leaving the poor guy alone to pursue his own thoughts and loves. And who knows what gifts to the whole world he could have returned from that."
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