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Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

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Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#601

Post by jorvi »

peter335 wrote: post #333
jorvi wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Currently there is a hard limit on how many properties per year can be built due to lack of construction workers + training positions for new workers + being sure of work in the next decade(s) due to economic cycles. Since the factor limiting supply is not cost or demand, prices keep ever-increasing with no gains for society; just filling the coffers of the haves. You should really watch out with insults of economic…

I stand by my characterization, this comment is symptomatic of the same problem. That a country with high unemployment has the nr of workers in the construction sector as the major limitation in construction of new housing seems very implausible. What about zoning laws? To the extent a country with high unemployment can’t find enough construction workers it’s likely to be some kind of government/regulatory failure. R…

High unemployment?

Boomers retiring will create a permanent labor shortage for the foreseeable future. People just don’t want to be construction workers, and who can blame them? Especially with how construction workers got screwed over after 2008. That nuked the construction sector so hard that employement in construction has just barely recovered to 2008 levels.

It would be beautiful if housing was the pure demand-supply curve that many claim it is- but currently it isn’t. Letting the market solve the housing problem doesn’t create additional future housing as that is blocked by house construction output, all it does is allow maximizing profit on existing real estate.

With the extreme anger and complete societal gridlock that the first world housing crisis is fomenting, if the fix was “just unregulate lol” politicians would have done that by now.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#602

Post by ffgjgf1 »

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #535
blackhawkC17 wrote: post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fortunately, most citizens are not economically illiterate enough to support this ideology. Private ownership of land and natural resources is the foundation of 21st-Century economic prosperity.

No it's not. Private property created a world where 8 persons control as much wealth as the poorest half of humanity. This is not common prosperity, this is exploitation.

So you’d rather the poor be even poorer as long as the rich wouldn’t control as much wealth or didn’t exist at all?

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#603

Post by rozularen »

diggan wrote: post #425
rozularen wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This "problem" is just for people with a lot of houses, rentist, that are part of the problem. Or the banks and vulture funds, who had most of the houses and flats in spain. And the squatting problem in spain is ridiculous small. THe percentage over the poblation is ridiculous. This that, in this article, don't mention at all. This is a problem that *anyone* with more than 1 property might suffer. FTFY It's unbelie…

> This is a problem that anyone with more than 1 property might suffer. FTFY Yes, "lots" = more than one Spain is still struggling with higher demand than supply, so people end up homeless. At the same time, Spain struggles with properties in high-demand areas being empty because the owner doesn't want to rent or sell it, so no one uses it at all. Finally, we're getting "upkeep taxes" added to those places, so they c…

there's a slight difference between one, a couple, a few, several and "lots". It's one of the first things you learn in English.

If I ran out of money it shouldn't be okay for me to rob someone's else money. The same way if I can't afford a house house I shouldn't squat a house.

If one can't afford a house, he or she should: - complain about the government house development policies - search for social housing if available - get a better job - not squat someone's else house - not have children and use them to justify squatting, which is very common - etc

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#604

Post by TotalCrackpot »

its_ethan wrote: post #572
TotalCrackpot wrote: post #505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That is an ahistorical perspective. For most of human history, you could be killed for putting a yurt or hut in someone else's land. Even chimps will kill others for infringing on territory. I don't agree with you, there are books such as The Dawn of Everything: A New History of Humanity that counter your rhetoric. Private property norms did not exist for most of human history. > Even chimps will kill others for in…

In general, I'm getting the impression from your comment that you have some overly idealistic beliefs, and that you're perhaps unwilling to engage honestly with ideas that are counter to your own, but in any case.. Re: The Dawn of Everything You're saying you don't agree with him because of a book you read - but that book has legitimate historians making some pretty bold criticisms: "cherry-picked and selectively pre…

> In general, I'm getting the impression from your comment that you have some overly idealistic beliefs, and that you're perhaps unwilling to engage honestly with ideas that are counter to your own, but in any case..

I like precise logical argumentation, that's not idealism, I don't make any unnecessary assumptions

> I'm also not quite sure why you would find it hard to agree with the notion that, throughout history, humans have been protective of their territory. The list of examples you could point to for this is unending.

Oh, that's very simple, for most of human history humans lived as hunter gatherers and they did not have private property or rent relations.

>To start, the other guy never claimed private property was a natural right. The rights we have emerged from people wanting to self organize for their mutual benefit.

No, there was an enclosure of commons that happened to exploit farmers as factory workers. Those rights were always about naturalizing oppressive human relations.

>It should tell you something that private property + property rights have consistently emerged, whenever people have tried to put together a society.

This is not true, many civilizations were against private property rights and private property rights were never universal, they are even not universal in this worlds, even if they exist in most places around the world.

>I admittedly didn't know much about this, but on some cursory research, it seems pretty obvious to me that this was not an entirely "free choice" based movement..

No one is coerced to join those rebels. And rebels are rebelling against unjust genocide of Indigenous Americans among others.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#605

Post by s1artibartfast »

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #589
s1artibartfast wrote: post #554

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so you dont buy the plot and just build two houses on them. How does that change your logic.

How do you deal with a situation where some people don't have any land anymore to put their houses there?

They make something they can trade, or go somewhere where there is land.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#606

Post by TotalCrackpot »

Vegenoid wrote: post #574
TotalCrackpot wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, so indeed it's important to organize self-defense groups that can help you not get hurt or enslaved.

Now you have a group (or multiple groups) of people that will use violence to prevent people from doing the things that they feel are wrong. Probably they'll decide on what those things that are worth using violence to prevent are, and probably they'll write them down so that everyone is on the same page. If they don't do that, then they are using violence for arbitrary and undefined reasons, which most people don't…

The most important difference is everyone could create such a group without main authority monopolizing violence. Some would try to recreate current authoritarian relations, while others would oppose them.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#607

Post by misja111 »

ghostDancer wrote: post #598
misja111 wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You were downvoted but you're hitting the nail on the head. The housing problem is an issue of supply and demand. Currently demand is bigger than supply and that leads to problems, no matter what you do. Either renting prices go up until many people can't afford to rent anymore, or if some law is put into place such as restricting rents or reducing owners' rights, supply will become even smaller and demand even bigge…

In Spain there are lots of empty apartments, from the bubble and IIRC are more than 2 million empty , but prices are still going up, most of the market is on the hands of foreign funds who are emptying the cities with their prices. There's a lot of speculation with housing in Spain. Not to talk about the campaign in the media about squatting, sowing fear continuously. The supply is artificially being held by the owne…

Then the government should make it less attractive for speculators to hold those homes, e.g. by introducing taxes for empty properties. And on the other hand they could make it more attractive for them to rent them out, e.g. by improving owner's rights.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#608

Post by s1artibartfast »

TotalCrackpot wrote: post #604
its_ethan wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In general, I'm getting the impression from your comment that you have some overly idealistic beliefs, and that you're perhaps unwilling to engage honestly with ideas that are counter to your own, but in any case.. Re: The Dawn of Everything You're saying you don't agree with him because of a book you read - but that book has legitimate historians making some pretty bold criticisms: "cherry-picked and selectively pre…

> In general, I'm getting the impression from your comment that you have some overly idealistic beliefs, and that you're perhaps unwilling to engage honestly with ideas that are counter to your own, but in any case.. I like precise logical argumentation, that's not idealism, I don't make any unnecessary assumptions > I'm also not quite sure why you would find it hard to agree with the notion that, throughout history,…

Those hunter gatherers still had territory. Sometimes it was claimed and defended by a tribe and not individuals, but still the same.

Only in places of complete abundance did people not make claims.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#609

Post by TotalCrackpot »

stctw wrote: post #591
TotalCrackpot wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The criterion of abandonment of private property I think should differ based on the local customs and on the type of private property, so for houses for example maybe it should be a year or 2 of you not living there before your house is considered abandoned and someone can live there. For for example mines I think they should be considered abandoned and ready for someone else to use much faster. The main problem of p…

How dare you use "dehumanizing" rhetoric against me, you far-right neo-fascist! That's rude! The thing about hypocrisy is that it reveals that you think you are superior to others and therefore entitled to rule over them using whatever means necessary, including dishonesty and, ultimately, force. It is the definition of anti-social and is considered unacceptable in society for good reason. The mind is much like a com…

I don't agree with you, I don't think you discuss in a good faith. You seem to write in a very emotional state, which possibly does not make you stable enough to engage in a coherent discussion.

I think everyone should have an opportunity to develop to the heights of one's potential and I think no one should be oppressed and exploited. I don't agree with you that I am anti-social or I have destructive ideas. Moreover, I am a very happy person, I consider myself completely satisfied with my personal life and that's why I am willing to engage in a fight for other people's opportunity to develop, even if they were unlucky in their life and they didn't have access to those opportunities. I am fine with propagating a complete deconstruction of norms very strongly naturalized in our current society if I find them justifying oppression and exploitation.

Re: Squatting in Spain: Understanding Spain's "okupas" problem

#610

Post by s1artibartfast »

redeeman wrote: post #501
Aurornis wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's clearly a gap between imaginary noble okupas addressing housing crisis via occupation of unused bank property and reality of weed smoking anarchists and their collaborating deoccupying mafia harassing mostly not-so-rich middle class, who can't afford the security measures the rich can. I had a friend who bought a house that needed a lot of work. Before he could get started on the remodel, someone broke in t…

Im amazed your friend didnt come up with a swift solution, and what would the squatters do? call police and say they were squatting? show their rental agreement?? wouldnt have happened to me

There is no swift solution legally. At least not in California, and it sounds like Spain is similar.

It can take years and six figures to get a squatter out.

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