Earlier quoted context omitted.
Spirit of the law is more important in the US. In common law systems (US, UK), there is greater emphasis on the spirit or intent behind the law. Judges have more flexibility to interpret laws and use general principles. Civil law systems place more importance on the letter of the law. The spirit behind the law is secondary. The written legal codes are more important. EU law is mixture of both, but most continental Eu…
Since the 1980s letter of the law has seen a remarkable upswing in power. I wouldn’t say spirit of the law applies anymore to SCOTUS rulings & I suspect federal appointments followed similar biases so it’s up & down the federal court. Not sure about state judges. Do you agree?
U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI
151–160 of 207 posts
Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
CUDA is pure lock-in, so it only makes sense for antitrust regulators to evaluate if it's causing anti-competitive damage to the market. Hint - it is. Lock-in is never good.
Making a must-have product doesn’t constitute being an anti-competitive monopolist. Coca Cola isn’t a monopolist because classic coke just tastes so good and yet they refuse to share the recipe with Pepsi Cola. Anti-competitiveness is more leveraging the must-have nature of CUDA to shelter Nvidia from competition. E.G. an OEM can’t sell professional laptops that support CUDA if it sells AMD gaming laptops or somethin…
I.e. a must have can be a must have without artificially added tying (lock-in) detail. Then it's not causing harm.
Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI
#153Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s questionable whether or not he anticipated this specific market vs he just positioned the company to eat up sales to high energy particle physics & similar super-computer applications and then got lucky that this accelerator also turned out to work pretty well for AI. At best, he saw that he needed a more general compute platform for GPUs but OpenCL was a thing so he wasn’t alone in recognizing this. There’s eve…
People have been saying that GPUs randomly happened to be good at ML since at least 2014 when Nervana was founded. It was clear 12 years ago to anyone paying attention that DL was revolutionizing the world and that NVIDIA GPUs were at the center of the revolution. Whatever random chance factored into NVIDIA's success is outweighed by the decade+ of pedal-to-the-metal development NVIDIA has undertaken while its compet…
CUDA won big because it made a big bet. Were it that OpenCL was ubiquitous and at feature-parity with CUDA, maybe there would be more than one player dealt-in at the table today. But everyone else folded while Nvidia ran the dealer for 10 long years.
Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI
#155Nvidia solved a hard problem and their competitors all failed. I spent years with an AMD card growing progressively more annoyed at their self-inflicted apparent inability to multiply matrices on demand. Nvidia had nothing to do with their failure, unless they had some sort of high-level mole in AMD's driver teams. Hitting the only successful company in a difficult field with legal assaults is not the obvious path to…
Some companies such as standard oil had extraordinarily effective vertically integrated monopolies. The issues came into play when they used their market dominance to secure things like rebate structures with rail roads and made agreements to buy up transit capacity at very favorable rates that left competitors at a serious disadvantage. A real question might be how Nvidia prioritizes capacity and delivery and pricin…
Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI
#156I am surprised the path to AGI isn’t first paved with a simple request to the AI gods to replace cuda. On the other hand, Microsoft does seem to have used mere mortals to write a driver/gpu independent way to run workloads in azure (Maia/Triton). Microsoft is truly unstoppable no matter which way this whole AI race goes.
But really, the blame has to be put on the rest of the industry. If you want to kill CUDA, you have to attack it where Nvidia won't defend; make something Open Source and cross-platform. The problem is getting everyone to sit at the same discussion table. Microsoft has a half-dozen accelerator programs in the work and benefits from the ecosystem fracture. AMD is desperate for anyone but themselves to do their work for them. Apple is hedging their bet on piecemeal acceleration while trying their hardest not to fall behind. Google is trying their hardest to distance themselves from hardware and focuses mostly on software. And Nvidia could care less what everyone does, because they're shipping the largest servers out of everyone mentioned.
> Microsoft is truly unstoppable no matter which way this whole AI race goes.
I can forsee one way they get crushed. If OpenAI keeps dealing in risky business with celebrities and intellectual property, Microsoft might be forced to divest one way or another. Without their OpenAI deal, Microsoft is in a much worse position more similar to Google. If everyone else is willing to ante-up on an Open Source CUDA alternative, then Microsoft's window closes to exploit the demand for a solution. Slim chance that everyone buries their hatchets though.
Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI
#157Nvidia solved a hard problem and their competitors all failed. I spent years with an AMD card growing progressively more annoyed at their self-inflicted apparent inability to multiply matrices on demand. Nvidia had nothing to do with their failure, unless they had some sort of high-level mole in AMD's driver teams. Hitting the only successful company in a difficult field with legal assaults is not the obvious path to…
Some companies such as standard oil had extraordinarily effective vertically integrated monopolies. The issues came into play when they used their market dominance to secure things like rebate structures with rail roads and made agreements to buy up transit capacity at very favorable rates that left competitors at a serious disadvantage. A real question might be how Nvidia prioritizes capacity and delivery and pricin…
Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI
#158Earlier quoted context omitted.
It’s questionable whether or not he anticipated this specific market vs he just positioned the company to eat up sales to high energy particle physics & similar super-computer applications and then got lucky that this accelerator also turned out to work pretty well for AI. At best, he saw that he needed a more general compute platform for GPUs but OpenCL was a thing so he wasn’t alone in recognizing this. There’s eve…
People have been saying that GPUs randomly happened to be good at ML since at least 2014 when Nervana was founded. It was clear 12 years ago to anyone paying attention that DL was revolutionizing the world and that NVIDIA GPUs were at the center of the revolution. Whatever random chance factored into NVIDIA's success is outweighed by the decade+ of pedal-to-the-metal development NVIDIA has undertaken while its compet…
> In pushing for CUDA, Jensen Huang aimed for the Nvidia GPUs to become a general hardware for scientific computing. CUDA was released in 2006. Around 2015, the focus of CUDA changed to neural networks.[8]
Credit to Jensen for pivoting, but I recall hearing about CUDA networks from Google tech talks in 2009 and realizing they would be huge. It wasn't anything unique to realize NNs were a huge innovation but it did take another 5 years for it to mature enough and for it to become clear that GPUs could be useful for training and whatnot. Additionally, it's important to remember that Google had a huge early lead here & worked closely with Nvidia since CUDA was much more mature than OpenCL (due to intentional sabotage or otherwise) and Nvidia's chips satisfied the compute needs of that early development.
So it was more like Google leading Nvidia to the drinking well and Nvidia eventually realizing it was potentially an untapped ocean and investing some resources. Remember, they also put resources behind cryptocurrency when that bubble was inflating. They're good at opportunistically taking advantage of those bubbles. It was also around this time period that Google realized they should start investing in dedicated accelerators with their TPUs because Nvidia could not meet their needs due to lack of focus (+ dedicated accelerators could outperform) leading to the first TPU being used internally by 2015 [2].
Pretending like Jensen is some unique visionary seeing something no one else in the industry didn't is insane. It was a confluence of factors and Jensen was adept at navigating his resources to take advantage of it. You can appreciate Nvidia's excellence here without pretending like Jensen is some kind of AI messiah.
Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI
#159Earlier quoted context omitted.
The alternative to CUDA is called OpenCL. There has been speculations that poor performance of NVIDIA GPUs with OpenCL compared to CUDA is an intentional anticompetitive practice, but I don't feel confident to tell for sure.
OpenCL is an alternative to CUDA just like Legos are an alternative to bricks. The problem with OpenCL isn't even the performance, it's everything. If OpenCL were any good, people could use it to build similarly powerful applications on cheaper AMD GPUs.
https://john.cs.olemiss.edu/heroes/papers/AMD_OpenCL_Program...
Bonus points: the rest of the software libraries intended to compete with the CUDA ecosystem are still online in the “HSA Toolkit” GitHub repo. Here’s their counterpart to the Thrust library (last updated 10 years ago):
https://github.com/HSA-Libraries/Bolt
Nvidia had multiple updates in the last year the last time I checked. That’s the problem.
Re: U.S. clears way for antitrust inquiries of Nvidia, Microsoft and OpenAI
#160Earlier quoted context omitted.
Just on that last paragraph, because the frame annoys me - that is bullying. It isn't fair to insinuate that a company did something wrong by attempting to obey the law. MS knows all about antitrust. They've hired a bunch of lawyers and told them to do what needs to be done to be compliant with the regulations. That shouldn't then be implied as evidence that they are guilty of antitrust activities! What are the lawye…
This is a confusing argument to me. Are you saying that structuring and smurfing should then be legal? All structuring and smurfing is is an attempt to make sure that financial transactions stay below the statutory reporting threshold. Also, I think you’re conflating my statement which was meant to be prescriptive with a descriptive statement. I’m saying if structuring and smurfing are illegal in a financial context,…
With banking, structuring laws mean banks need to report any transaction over $10,000.
So if I need to send you $100,000 and s split it up into 11 payments so each payment comes under the $10,000 reporting limit that breaks the law because my payment was for $100,000 but i structured it to get around the $10,000 reporting limit.
If Microsoft approaches anit trust limits if it owns more than 50% of a company and buys 49% then no strucuturing took place as they only bought 49%. Now if they bough 10% in each of 6 different shell companies that they own such that they'd control 60% of hte company, then this is illegal as it works around the limits.
But owning up to the limit is perfectly fine as it doesn't in anyway break the law or work around it. That's the very reason for having a limit, to say you can go up to this limit, but not over.
I'm guessing you don't deal in finance at all as we deal with this all the time. You'll see funds owning up to 9.9% of companies to avoid the 10% reporting threshold. Again, nothing illegal here as the government has said they are perfectly fine with funds owning up to <10% of a company.